I had made a post about this earlier. I would like to go into nursing, but am against abortion completely at all times, I am Catholic, and I would never ever take part in an abortion procedure, nor would i want to care for someone immediately after they had the procedure becuase without me there to do that, the abortion couldnt have happened, so in a way i am still contributing to the abortion. I will make this clear from the start, If somebody had an abortion a year prior or a month prior or whatever else of course i would still care for them. As long as i am not being responsible for that abortion happening,, I could still care for them.
Alot of people said, that is fine just don't work in the ER, OR, OB/GYN areas.. but truthfully i would like to work in all of these areas more then others.... is this possible?
Note: I do not feel that it is any of my business if my patient had an abortion in the past and i would never treat anybody differently becuase they had one in the past. I just need to know that when i sleep at night I am doing the right thing and not going against my beliefs and I think that i deserve those rights..
Thanks for your input! i would love to hear from other pro life nurses most of all and any experiences you have had with this
I am not saying the life of the baby is more important than the life of the mothers in a situation like that, however i do not believe that the life of the mother is more important than that of the child either,,,, obviously these situations are terrible and i feel awful for anybody having to go through that, but i still would have to decline taking part in the procedure. I could take care of the patient afterwards but an abortion is an abortion and regardless of the situation what they do to that baby is the same.
I don't believe in taking a life to save another. Now, in situations like an ectopic pregnancy where the baby will die no matter what, i do believe that you need to save the mother.. if one life and one life only can be saved then that is what you must do of course... but the Catholic church also believes in doing this in a way that is not a direct attack on the child's life (removing the tube, but not aborting) ...
It strikes me when I read this how murky things get when you try to draw a line in the sand. For me it reinforces my belief that having an abortion or not having one is a personal decision that needs to remain so.
I think that patients have a right to the same level of treatment, no matter what their provider's personal beliefs are. That also includes the options that patients are presented with. If you have a patient who presents with an unwanted pregnancy or possible unwanted pregnancy (and you can fill in what some of those situations would be in an ER or Peds unit) they deserve the same level of support and education on their choices from whoever is taking care of them. How would you handle that?
You seem to have a pretty well grounded moral compass. I would hate to see you not practice in a field you may love and be good at over all of these "what ifs". But I think it's important to recognize that your patients have rights that are independent of your beliefs and even of your values.
And I just have to put this out there. I think the Catholic church should keep a low profile on this issue. They are so quick to talk about protecting innocent lives and families when it comes to denying people the right to make their own decisions on abortion, on voting for politicians who support abortion rights, on gay marriage, etc. Their own record in protecting children in their own institutions, and on protecting serial child abusers is pretty abysmal. Those who live in glass houses.....
I believe a nurse has an obligation first to the patient. We can believe what we want, but any nurse who brings their religion/upbringing/beliefs/whatever into the hospital knowing it'll affect their ability to give care is a nurse who isn't putting the patient first. At the risk of being flamed for this, are you sure nursing is right for you?
Even in a religious-based hospital, this issue WILL come up. Even Catholic patients have fetuses that sometimes die in utero; do these woman deserve to carry the corpse inside them the full 9 months? Is it your right to force the grieving mother to carry a dead fetus to term? ... even when it's against doctor orders? Abortion is not a black-and-white issue.
While I have a great deal of respect for anyone who stands up for their beliefs, their right to a belief ends at the boundary to another person. In your example of abortion, what you're saying is you'll let a mother die before you'll help her get lifesaving care... and if she is dead, the fetus may not be survive on its own. As someone who spent my childhood in Catholic school, I don't believe that's right. And, as someone in the Nursing field, I don't feel it's professional to pick and choose what treatments you'll give the patient, despite the patient or doctor's wishes.
Let me try an analogy: what if there is a nurse who believes let's say it's wrong for elderly to suffer. So she quietly refuses to give medication to elderly [resulting in their death], despite doctor or patient orders, because she believes it's "God's will". How is one situation right and the other wrong?
If that's too extreme of an example, maybe an analogy is a Catholic who believe birth control is wrong (as this was the Vatican's stance for ages). Does that nurse have a right to not give patients birth control pills the doctor ordered? It's basically the same thing. "Birth control pills don't kill babies" might be an answer.... however, the Catholic stance is usually "birth begins at conception" and if The Pill helps to prevent implantation, it's taking a "life" just the same. Will you be comfortable helping patients with The Pill? What if you know one version of the pill can be taken in a higher dose (Plan-B) as emergency contraception, to reject the fertilized egg.... will you be still be comfortable in situations where your patient is discussing or needing hormone-based contraception? I hope you will reconsider.
I am not attacking you for your beliefs. Nurses need to leave their beliefs outside of the hospital doors. This is like having a Jehovahs Witness nurse refusing to give any patient a blood transfusion for any reason, even if the patient is dying.
Speaking from a Catholic upbringing, the Church also tells us it's God's place to judge, not ours. If God condemns the woman who has a hydroencephalic dying fetus terminated now rather than after going through labor for it to die a slow painful death, that is between her and God.
Have you considered working in a different field where the conflict won't come up? For example, geriatrics is needs nurses right now. You face a difficult conflict to resolve. Kudos to you for thinking about this important topic now, before entering the workplace. Good luck!
I have been pro-life for 53 years and it has never interfered with my job. I make sure that I'm not working in OR where abortions take place. I worked Mother/Baby and L&D for years and never had to participate in any abortion. I have cared for many women post-abortion. One in particular, was carrying a handicapped child. She & her DH decided they didn't want to raise a child with disablities, so they had a 3rd trimester abortion.I have a severely handicapped son. I didn't like it, but I kept my feelings to myself and continued to care for her. After it was over, she cried and cried. She was so sad. I really felt bad for her and I sat with her and let her talk for a very long time, until she fell asleep. I would never, ever let a patient know that I oppose her beliefs. Every patient deserves dignity, even if I think they're making a huge abominable mistake. It's not my call.
Yeah actually i wouldnt be comfortable giving out thebirth control pill and plan B.. and as far as the fetus dying in the womb,, thats not the same thing. If the baby has already died wouldnt that be dangerous to leave it in thewomb? Couldnt that cause a serious infection? That istotally different.....
and Actually since you brought it up, i believe that Jehovah's witness nurses do not have to give bloodtransfusions.... ithink that is part of the conscience clause, not saying i agree with that, nobody is dying to give the patient their blood people willingly do that to help save lives so that is pretty different but as far as i know they dont have to do that...
Yeah actually i wouldnt be comfortable giving out thebirth control pill and plan B.. and as far as the fetus dying in the womb,, thats not the same thing. If the baby has already died wouldnt that be dangerous to leave it in thewomb? Couldnt that cause a serious infection? That istotally different.....
Specializes in Wound care, Surgery,Infection control.
Before I comment on the subject at hand I want to vent . After reading this thread I am seeing a pattern that is becoming prevalent in the forums : Allnurses has become very popular with posters who have grand education and employment goals but in some cases have not even started nursing school. While I applaud and encourage everyone who wants to climb the ladder , lets not forget the road is long and perhaps your time would be put to greater use studying a book instead of making patient care decisions based on your beliefs instead of sound nursing judgment. We have the original poster who states she is a teacher.
JayMar23 -I don't know where you teach but your spelling is horrid and your sentences lack syntax and grammar .
Quote
"I am currently in education, I teach students right now who say terrible things to each other, who have beat up other kids, have done things i disagree with, but when they need help with their schoolwork i help them, i'm not contributing to these things that i disagree with and i do have the chance to help them make good decisions in the future..."
Then we have Julz034 , who wants to share her views with children in need of psychiatric consultation . A very noble profession and you have my best wishes.I know you are eager to get that MSN and I am sure that the next 10 years of school will be money well spent. Watch out for those pesky student loans! They can really add up.
I would like to share this recent study that was written after research and not based on personal belief
In the U.S.: Some US states are passing laws requiring parental consent before teenage women under the age of 18 can have an abortion; this has resulted in a significant rise of later abortions among young women, causing greater risk of complications. Some teens, fearing their parents' reactions, have sought illegal abortions; deaths have occurred.
A 2004 study by the Fuller Theological Seminary -- a leading Evangelical Christian divinity school -- showed that a decade long decline in abortion rates in the U.S. during President Clinton's administration has reversed. Glen Stassen, the Lewis B. Smedes Professor of Christian Ethics found that, under President Bush, rising unemployment and soaring healthcare costs have increased the abortion rate. He noted that "economic policy and abortion are not separate issues. They form one moral imperative." Stassen analyzed data from Minnesota Citizens Concerned for Life, the Guttmacher Institute, and annual reports by individual state governments. He found that abortion rates declined 17.4% during the 1990s and reached a 24-year low when President Bush took office. "We Hold These Truths" reported that "Many expected that downward trend to continue under the conservative president, but Stassen found the opposite: 52,000 more abortions occurred in 2002 than would have been expected under the pre-2000 conditions, and abortion has risen significantly in those states reporting multi-year abortion statistics."
you use bith control but you wouldn't feel comfortable giving it to someone else? Maybe you should finish your degree in music and concentrate on that. Not to be disrespectful but you sound confused what what your beliefs actually are.
and Actually since you brought it up, i believe that Jehovah's witness nurses do not have to give bloodtransfusions.... ithink that is part of the conscience clause, not saying i agree with that, nobody is dying to give the patient their blood people willingly do that to help save lives so that is pretty different but as far as i know they dont have to do that...
huh, if a certain nurse refuse to give blood transfusion to the patient than this nurse might be guilty of an act of negligence or malpractice...
Where I work in the OR we don't allow nurses to refuse caring for patients having terminations. If you decide to work in the OR then you have chosen the responsibility in providing non judgemental care for patients. If you want to be an anaesthetic nurse there is no way they would allow you to refuse to assist in blood transfusions because on night shift in trauma this could lead to causing harm to the patient.
CeilingCat said:
I believe a nurse has an obligation first to the patient. We can believe what we want, but any nurse who brings their religion/upbringing/beliefs/whatever into the hospital knowing it'll affect their ability to give care is a nurse who isn't putting the patient first. At the risk of being flamed for this, are you sure nursing is right for you?
While I have a great deal of respect for anyone who stands up for their beliefs, their right to a belief ends at the boundary to another person. In your example of abortion, what you're saying is you'll let a mother die before you'll help her get lifesaving care... and if she is dead, the fetus may not be survive on its own. As someone who spent my childhood in Catholic school, I don't believe that's right. And, as someone in the Nursing field, I don't feel it's professional to pick and choose what treatments you'll give the patient, despite the patient or doctor's wishes.
I couldn't agree with you more. We're all entitled to our personal beliefs. But in nursing the patient's needs come before any personal values and beliefs you may have. If you can't deal with the possibility of caring for patients undergoing terminations then you might want to think long and hard about nursing as a career or what area of nursing you may want to get into.
I'd avoid OB emergency rooms or ORs in a hospital that does primarily woman's care. In a regular OR, you may see D&Cs here and there. If you can find work on a specialty team in the OR, that may work.
I have taken care of a patient that needed a procedure after she had undergone an abortion several weeks prior. I don't think I could actively participate in one though(elective ones). I try to avoid GYN at all costs though-not my cup of tea.
hmm you would not work for a hospital that dispensed birth control? Seriously we live in the 21 centuries,even public school have machine that dispense birth control!
Ps.Also a trully religious person should be filled with compassion,non-judgmental attitude and emphathy instead of self proclaimed pseudo-rightenousness or self-love! Please learn how to respect people from all walks of life after all you have taken an oath to treat pt with dignity..but why do I even bother responding to your judgmental post,maybe to show you another side of the coin!
Wow!! That's not at all what I was trying to say!! With all respect, I re-read my response, and I don't understand how one would think that but apparently that's an incorrect assumption on my part. I apologize for not making myself clear. Since I tend to write posts that are too long, I didn't get too much into my beliefs- but I guess I will now. I am a woman of many flaws and questionable beliefs, but I am not a religious fanatical, judgemental, egotistical, coldhearted, narcissistic, disrespectful female canine.
When I read the original post, all I knew was that the poster 1. is Catholic and 2. opposed to abortion. Having worked in a Catholic majority state, I know that Catholics can a vary greatly on how strict they are in their own personal beliefs- beyond what the church may say. The point I was making was that if OP was a devout Catholic, then she would most likely be uncomfortable working in any institution that used BC or did any type of abortion, including 'Mom will die' scenarios. Were that the case, I would not hold that against her- it's her belief.... but I was trying to make the point that any non-Catholic run facility would probably be a problem for her. I think it's great that she posted the question on a board for nursing professionals. If she is worried that she may have a potential conflict between her beliefs and her job should she choose a certain speciality, what better way to get feedback as to whether it's a feasible goal? I respect that. Were she an absolute strict and devout Catholic, I feel she would have a problem finding a suitable position outside of a Catholic hospital. I have no problem with that. Were she a strict Catholic who took a position on just any OB floor (for example), and used that to create a battleground to flaunt her views.... I'd have a problem with that. BUT, that is not my impression of her or her intentions. My impression is that she wants to see if it's possible to work in an area she would really like to work in if she has 'x' point of view. I think she has most likely put a great deal of thought into the matter. The basis of my post was that if she doesn't oppose BC, post-abortion complication care, or similiar issues, then I think there are instances that she could work in ER/OR/OB and never have to make a decision which she would feel was wrong. I don't personally judge her on her views, one way or the other.
Now, as to my views on life and religion in general.... I'll try to be brief but it will still be too long. I usually try to keep my personal views to myself, but I am compelled in this as though I may have many flaws... I am not a bigot!!! I will not be called so, without trying to explain my point of view.
-I believe in God. I call 'Him' 'God', because it's easy and He seems to not have a problem with it. Personally, I feel He is to infinite to quantify, but it's not practical to refer to him by some long descriptive sentence and I feel He is a practical being.
-I consider myself to be a Christian, and I freely admit others would disagree. I don't think there is any church that would uphold my views.
-To me, the fact that we have so many different religions proves there is a God. Call Him Allah, God, Buddha, The Great White Spirit, whatever. God is infinite, people are not. He knows this, and provides us with choice so we can all find our little click.
-It is not God's fault that people use His name, be it God, Allah, whatever; and His message to commit atrocities. There are crazy Christians, Muslams, and Buddhists.
-God gave us free will.
-Since God gave us free will- the Bible cannot be viewed as the be all, end all. Word of God, yes.... but filtered through and susequently manipulated by the hand of man. It's a tool, not an absolute literal guide for how life should be. Furthermore, I feel the same can be said of other religious texts. I also feel that we are now seeing 'new books', like 'The Gospel of Judas', surface into mainstream because God wants it to happen. There's a lesson there to be learned, and we have just now reached the stage where He feels humanity is ready. I have a hard time believing that a collection of books a few influential men put together centuries ago could be the final and absolute Word of God.
-Jesus was also a political force to be reckoned with. To deny Him that credit diminishes His genius.
-I think it's better to 'preach' Christianity through one's actions, not words.
-I don't beleive there is an absolute final and eternal hell.
-I believe in reincarnation. Completely.
-I think you should question God, but be respectful! I think God even understands arguing w. Him- to a point.
-God does not want us to judge- I think He's pretty clear on that one.
-Evolution, Big Bang, and science in general supports the fact that there is a God. Look at the patterns- how could it all be random? From the wonders of the atom to the vast universe, God has His hand in all of it. He is infinite. It is presumptuous, to me, to put our limited understanding of time and space as constraints on God. He made the heavens and Earth.... the fact that it was in seven days is to help us, through all of our limitations, understand it as best we can. If we lived on a planet that had ten days, it would probably say He made it all in nine and then rested. God apparently understands the importance of rest.
So, that is the basis of my belief. There's more, but I am well aware of my flaw that is Too Long Posts.
Now, while I'm slinging my beliefs around and offending many- on to abortion. I am pro-life. My choice for my life and how I try to live it as I think is best for me. So, when I was saying I would have a problem administering a to-this-date-not-approved-by-the-FDA-abortion-pill, aka RU-486, I meant it. I tried to make clear that I don't view Plan B as an abortion pill and that I have no problem administering Plan B. I work with a Catholic Nurse who does have a problem with it.... and because I respect this nurse I don't mind giving Plan B for him/her. This is also a Nurse who holds him/herself to a very strict level of Catholicism, but freely admits s/he doesn't judge others who don't. I appreciate this, because I do have a problem with hipocrisy. Even as strict as this nurse is w/ regards to personal belief.... this nurse would never deny care to an ER pt on the grounds that said pt had an abortion.
I don't have a problem in some situations with 'medical abortions'. I would not personally do it, and we can discuss hypothetical extreme cases all day long, but I doubt I'll change how I would handle it. Again, and I hate to repeat myself, I don't judge others who feel differently. To give a few examples, I'll start w/ my own story. The first US of my daughter when I was pregnant showed what seemed to be a fairly significant spinal defect. US #2 showed a 'possibility' of a spinal problem. She was born fat and healthy. My OB at one point hinted that there was the possibility to discuss 'options', and I politely declined. Another real world situation that comes to mind- only because someone mentioned it in another post, is trisomy 13. I had a pt once w/ this. About as full-blown as it could be in a pt who lived to be over 10yrs old. Whether it was total trisomy or mosiacism, I have no clue. But the child lived to be almost 11. Yes, this child had profound disability, but I have rarely seen such dedicated parents. This child knew s/he had love, and gave love as well. About the only definite thing s/he could do was smile- but it was beautiful. I support the parents decision to not have a medical termination, and I can tell you there were times they argued w/ God about whether their choice was right or not- they were certainly judged at times because they didn't. Would I judge another parent who chose a different route- no.
The problem with 'medically necessary' abortion is the individual and wide variations in what pople consider 'medically necessary.'
I'll not elaborate further at this point to nail down my specific and personal opinions. Again, too long, I know. I'm all for an open debate, though. I love me a good debate..... yum! lol. If enough people would like to, I'm willing to have a polite and lively debate. I usually avoid these in 'real life', because sometimes emotions prevail, but cyberspace is perfect. One has the opportunity to step back and take the time to make one's point in a civil manner. I think hot topic debates are great, provided that people can behave and respect other points of view. You can't appreciate someone's point of view, sometimes, without have a good debate about it all.
To bad we don't have a "Ethical Issues in Nursing" board, or maybe we do and I just haven't found it.
So there you have it, a very long but still brief summation of Rhia's point-of-view. Hopefully I've managed in all my long-windedness to convey the fact that I am not an intolerant person. About the only thing in life I have no tolerance for is intolerance.
She was so sad. I really felt bad for her and I sat with her and let her talk for a very long time, until she fell asleep. I would never, ever let a patient know that I oppose her beliefs. Every patient deserves dignity, even if I think they're making a huge abominable mistake. It's not my call.
jzkfel
55 Posts
It strikes me when I read this how murky things get when you try to draw a line in the sand. For me it reinforces my belief that having an abortion or not having one is a personal decision that needs to remain so.
I think that patients have a right to the same level of treatment, no matter what their provider's personal beliefs are. That also includes the options that patients are presented with. If you have a patient who presents with an unwanted pregnancy or possible unwanted pregnancy (and you can fill in what some of those situations would be in an ER or Peds unit) they deserve the same level of support and education on their choices from whoever is taking care of them. How would you handle that?
You seem to have a pretty well grounded moral compass. I would hate to see you not practice in a field you may love and be good at over all of these "what ifs". But I think it's important to recognize that your patients have rights that are independent of your beliefs and even of your values.
And I just have to put this out there. I think the Catholic church should keep a low profile on this issue. They are so quick to talk about protecting innocent lives and families when it comes to denying people the right to make their own decisions on abortion, on voting for politicians who support abortion rights, on gay marriage, etc. Their own record in protecting children in their own institutions, and on protecting serial child abusers is pretty abysmal. Those who live in glass houses.....