Predatory New Grad Contracts

[CreamCheeseRangoons]

Hey, y'all! I am compiling stories from folks who have broken predatory new graduate contracts, and have faced financial and career consequences as a result (I'm looking at you, HCA). The hospitals have held all the power in these dealings, and it's time we receive justice. Many of us have struggled and worked hard to provide excellent care for our patients under dire staffing and resources, only to receive backlash when we decide it's time to leave these unsafe conditions. I want to help tell our stories and prevent this disgusting practice to end. Here is my story:

I recently left a position at an HCA facility before my new grad contract was up (I had completed 3/4 of the two years), and I now owe them thousands of dollars. The unit I worked on was chronically understaffed, overworked, and underpaid. I continued to work hard and try to boost morale despite the daily strife. I volunteered to work in the COVID units back in April 2020 when little was known about the disease, and how to protect ourselves from it. Then my home unit was also turned into a PCU COVID unit, where I spent many of my shifts until I left in December 2020. My mental health had been deteriorating as a result of the stress and exhaustion. I had many conversations with my manager about the unacceptable conditions, and how it was affecting my mental health. No attempts were made to remedy the unit's situation. I told my manager I was accepting another position to take better care of myself. I am now being harassed by their collections agency, Benefit Recovery Group, to pay up the money I owe for the "Residency Program," (aka a three month orientation similar to what an experienced nurse would receive if they were changing unit specialties).

I don't believe I should be penalized for leaving unsafe working conditions after I had made multiple reports. I also cited my health as a reason for leaving, and it's only ironic that a hospital would come after an employee for prioritizing their health. Attempts at contacting HR and my previous manager have been futile. I am now frustrated, angry, and hungry for justice for myself and others who have been wronged by hospitals. 

Please message me if you want to share your story. I will respect your need for anonymity if that is what your wish. Thank you for your time. 

[JKL33]

3 hours ago, CharleeFoxtrot said:

Someday over coffee I'll tell you the story about me co-signing on a car loan and other sundry loans ($40K worth) for an ex that defaulted on them. I am quite sure I was told what would happen if he didn't make the payments but hey, he wouldn't do that to me. Sorry I digress.

Again. The product/goods received as part of this contract are whatever the employer says they are. There is no way for a new grad to understand that's what this contract means. Even if a lawyer makes this very clear, those responsible for hiring need to follow zero rules when answering the questions that they lawyer cannot answer (about working conditions, scheduling practices, etc.).

This is not the same as a credit spending spree and--no disrespect intended--not like anyone's car loan or any other purchased good or service where you have a better idea of what you are going to get in return for what you said you would pay or do. This is more like agreeing to pay a contractor to build a house and when they start pouring the foundation with ground up dog *** you're still expected to "honor" the contract or else have your credit wrecked.

[CharleeFoxtrot, BSN, RN]

1 hour ago, JKL33 said:

Again. The product/goods received as part of this contract are whatever the employer says they are. There is no way for a new grad to understand that's what this contract means. 

I respectfully-and I do mean that- disagree.  Someone who is smart enough to survive nursing school and pass the NCLEX should be able to understand what a contract means, and what the ramifications are to breaking it.

This is not the same as being able to grasp what an utter fecal festival some hospital environments are. That having been said, someone contemplating signing a contract-any contract should entertain the notion at some point in the process "what happens if this doesn't work out?"

[JKL33]

2 hours ago, CharleeFoxtrot said:

That having been said, someone contemplating signing a contract-any contract should entertain the notion at some point in the process "what happens if this doesn't work out?"

Now that I agree with! ?  There is still the problem of them having few options even if they do recognize that signing the contract is committing to something that might not work out. Some of the responses they have been given are less than intellectual and tend to simply be the false dichotomy equivalent of "if you don't like it (here), leave." There are actually other ways that things could be, if we didn't feel compelled to defend them and make excuses for them.

When Entity #1 has freely given false information, reneged in numerous ways verbal and probably not written, I do have a problem saying that the worst, most unethical and irresponsible move occurs when when Entity #2 calls it quits and violates the one portion of the relationship that is provable.

I feel that, at the least, those who defend this should also be strong advocates that employers legally be required to step up to the plate in a similar way. As it is, they actually do not have to uphold their own contract, either--and they won't if they don't want to. And they will end the contract as they see fit--with near-complete impunity. They just make up a reason why the employee isn't succeeding and that's it.

I keep interacting with this thread because I sincerely do not understand the moral (not legal) discrepancy that is inherently being defended. When I read comments written with tones that would suggest there is a freely equal balance of power between these two entities and that #2 is irresponsible but #1 is not, I'm just not going to see it that way. I have no idea why we accept one thing from #1 and expect something entirely more moral from #2.

ETA: People are also acting as if every contract is rock solid and defensible just because it was signed. And as if new grad nurses have the financial means to really argue these in court. Since they realistically can't, that proves that these must be legally defensible in all situations?

[JKL33]

This is just...??

We can do better than this.

So far we have heard the tired, old, usual:

- The Greedy New Grad rebuttal (several comments made here-some rather rude right off the bat-under the assumption that the new grad received a signing bonus and then ran away)

- The Grass Isn't Greener/What Are You Complaining About/It's Like That Everywhere rebuttal

- You Should Have Known Everything About How Multi-Billion-Dollar Corporations Operate rebuttal

- If You Don't Like It Work Somewhere Else rebuttal

[Jedrnurse, BSN, RN]

One factor about these contracts that hasn't really been addressed is do the hospitals really deliver on the orientation/training?

I believe I've read a few accounts here on AN in which the "goods" were definitely skimped on and the new nurses were cut loose much earlier than promised and with mediocre education (think do-it-home online modules) to boot...

[Wuzzie]

1 hour ago, JKL33 said:

When Entity #1 has freely given false information, reneged in numerous ways verbal and probably not written, I do have a problem saying that the worst, most unethical and irresponsible move occurs when when Entity #2 calls it quits and violates the one portion of the relationship that is provable.

Just to play devils advocate as you and I most frequently agree on things. What if Entity #1 kept up their part of the bargain but Entity #2 failed to mention to Entity #1 upon hire that they were enrolled in grad school and were already planning to bail prior to completing the 2 year requirement. Would you feel the same?

I ask because I’ve seen this happen and the direct result of it was the birth of these contracts. Note, they only apply to residencies not routine new hires. 
 

FTR: I am in no way shape or form implying this is what the OP or anyone else on this thread is doing. 

[chare]

On 4/10/2021 at 3:22 PM, Jedrnurse said:

On 4/10/2021 at 3:09 PM, LovingLife123 said:

[...]

New grad contracts are common.  It costs a ton of money to train a new grad.  The cost is over $100k. I saw a figure a few years ago that stated $129k.  An employer wants to at least ensure they will get that money back.

[...]

I would really like to see a reliable source for this, particularly one that breaks down the legitimate expenses, item by item.

I agree.  

Quote

[...]

Variable measure calculation and research methodology design appears to be typical in health-care turnover research. For example, the 2009 Retaining Experienced Nurses Research Initiative sponsored by the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation reported that RN replacement costs for 13 grantee hospitals ranged from $14,225 to $60,102, with the average cost of replacing a full-time equivalent RN being $36,657 (Lewin Group, Inc., 2009). In contrast, a Consumer Price Index cost assessment technique obtained an average cost of replacing an experienced RN at $62,000 to $67,000, with a correlated total nurse turnover cost of $5.9 to $6.4 million, and after inflation adjustment, these values rose higher—to $82,000 to $88,000 and $7.9 to 8.5 million (Jones, 2008). Regardless of the variability in turnover calculation technique employed by facilities and investigators, cumulative research findings indicate that hospital nurse turnover can be costly for organizations to ignore.

[...]

Kurnat-THomas, E., Ganger, M., Peterson, K., & Chanell, L. (2017). Reducing annual hospital and registered nurse staff turnover-a 10-element onboarding program intervention. Sage Open Nursing, 3, 1-13. https://dx.doi.org/10.1177/2377960817697712 

[LovingLife123]

OP, you did not originally state that there was sexual harassment.  You stated what you felt were unsafe staffing ratios during covid.  We all worked that way.  My ICU was stretched dangerously thin.  A big discussion on my unit was how horrible we all felt that we couldn’t give our normal great care during covid.  Many days it was, well everyone is alive, I did my best.

You are the one being rude and condescending.  If you spent any time on here at all, you would know I’m not a troll and I’m a regular contributor.

I absolutely do not feel sorry for you that you are now required to pay back money.  If you didn’t get a sign on bonus what did your contract state that you had to pay back?  What is the monies owed then?   You can’t pay back money you earned for work, so what is this penalty?  As an adult, you should scrutinize any contract you sign.  You should also have an attorney read it as well.  They can advise you.

 

[LovingLife123]

20 minutes ago, chare said:

I agree.  

Kurnat-THomas, E., Ganger, M., Peterson, K., & Chanell, L. (2017). Reducing annual hospital and registered nurse staff turnover-a 10-element onboarding program intervention. Sage Open Nursing, 3, 1-13. https://dx.doi.org/10.1177/2377960817697712 

I will just post this link.  I think in training a new grad, many hospitals have opted to go to residencies like mine which inflates that number much higher.  Our new grads do like 4 weeks of in classroom training, 12 weeks of orientation, then there is a mentor program to these new orientees in the ICU units.  We invest a lot into our new grads.  We don’t require contracts and we lose money on them.  I always used to be pro hire new grads into the ICU.  I was myself a new grad in the ICU.  I’m not anymore.

https://www.nursingcenter.com/journalarticle?Article_ID=1553187&Journal_ID=54029&Issue_ID=1552904

[JKL33]

53 minutes ago, Wuzzie said:

What if Entity #1 kept up their part of the bargain but Entity #2 failed to mention to Entity #1 upon hire that they were enrolled in grad school and were already planning to bail prior to completing the 2 year requirement. Would you feel the same?

No, I wouldn't feel the same. I would say in that instance there was an underhandedness on the part of the applicant/employee that was felt, pre-agreement, to be acceptable to that individual. I don't like that. It's the same nature as what I am arguing against--the underhandedness that is just felt to be acceptable to the employer right from the outset. I would generally hope to stick with my goose/gander mindset no matter who it applies to. Not perfect on that, but I try.

[JKL33]

LovingLife123 said:

 What is the monies owed then?

Probably blocked but I'll write it anyway:

That is THE THING that makes this topic a topic at all.

Stop being so sure that everyone but yourself is some kind of irresponsible bandit that somehow managed to single-handedly rob a corporation and now wants to cry about it.

There are no monies owed other than what shady characters estimate their cost of training a new grad to be--and they expect to pass this business expense OF THEIRS, that THEY FREELY CHOSE (over their option to retain experienced nurses) onto their brand-new entry-level employees.

[JKL33]

Good lourd. If you want people to work for you, you have to get them to agree to come work for you, you have to pay them, and you have to somehow keep them or else deal with the horrible injustice of having to continually train new people.

 ?