Very disturbing...one of our frequent psych patients (d/c'd) was picked up by the police. For what, I don't know. But I've never known the guy to assaultive. Agitated at times, yes. Assaultive, no.
Police apparently had him and he got agitated. He was Taser'd a few times and died when he got to our hospital.
This is the fourth time *this year* that police in our area have ended up killing a psych patient. Mostly from Tasering, once from being 'restrained' according to the news.
I just think police need some training on dealing with mentally ill people. This is a crying shame. Mentally ill and agitated is not the same as criminal!
What I'm trying to say is this. You can't judge the use of taser guns from a few deaths. Yes they are tragic, but they happen. Deaths from taser guns are a lot lower than deaths from pistols.
Actually you can. If people are dying from the use of taser guns, then their use needs to be reevaluated. A lot of the deaths from the tasers are the result of officers not using them judiciously anyway. This should be assessed before more innocent people die needlessly.
You know, this situation has always baffled me. I have seen countless cases of police "brutality" which I felt was a case of police misinformation. Unfortunately the mentally ill in this country are treated as less than third class citizens. They are discharged into the streets with no medications, or if they have some, no ability to self administer them, no money, etc. etc. Then of course they encounter the legal community eventually. Being sometimes somewhat combative, and not always appearing to be a "normal" individual, police become easily afraid of the possible actions they might encounter and tend to use excessive force. Unfortunately, they are not educated about sick individuals, either physical or mental illnesses. I remember one very clear instance when a patient in insulin shock nearly died in police custody because they thought he was "drugged up" as they put it. Turned out his blood sugar was 40, and, he was very lethargic and incoherent. Because they didn't smell alcohol, they assumed it was "dope" which is their favorite expression it seems. I have often thought of offering to provide some classes for the police force in my town in an effort to increase awareness of both physical or mental illnesses that could resemble criminal behavior. I've been somewhat reluctant to offer, though, because there seems to be so much resistance to new ways of doing things. Perhaps we should start some kind of program for public servants (not limited to police perhaps) to advocate for the mentally ill. Maybe if just one police force would start the ball rolling others would follow. Small towns might be the best place to start I think since someone may know someone personally who has a connection to the chief or officers. Just a thought. . . .
Specializes in Education, Acute, Med/Surg, Tele, etc.
Yes, the police officers are there to quell the situation from becoming something that endangers others and themselves. It is sad that these things do occur, but until an investigation is completed we just don't know the facts as clearly as I would want before passing any type of judgement.
My hubby is a paramedic, and he tells me stories of police and fire handling these types of situations all the time. Most of the common pick ups on psych cases or as we call them "frequent flyers" are well known in our communities and the police typically know what to do (they have seen them mulitiple times) and the hospital...well we have them on record to be sure. HOWEVER, if one is not known...and acting in a way that puts themselves or others in danger...it is fully okay to use force to control the person. They must protect themselves and the public.
Now, with that being said...once a scene is clear of harm a paramedic is typically called if there was an injury or assumed psych case. It is them that make the medical assessment of the situation...not the police! But the scene must be clear of any harm before letting the paramedics in (not that that happens all the time though..holly cow my hubby has horror stories!).
So there is your assessment at scene...and that is if one is called (which typically around here the police or fire (who have paramedics too) do call them...LOL, beats having to take them to a hospital themselves I suppose..LOL!).
As I look at it, there are a LOT less deaths by tazzer than by a gun. If a police officer is to use their gun, it is to kill not mame...to kill (that is why training for guns is so important to be done...these guys have to weigh a situation so carefully in seconds!!! I don't envy that). A tazzer can be used instead of that...and sadly it too can kill. But the difference..one does kill..the other may kill.
I would be curious..did the police bring the pt in or did the paramedics? I am sure the police did what they could to help the pt once the scene was safe and called in for medical back up to help the pt. At this point..that is all you can do...
Specializes in Happily semi-retired; excited for the whole whammy.
I guess what bothers me the most about the posters that object to public scrutiny of police actions is their protestation that it isn't fair to rush to judgment without the facts. No, of course it isn't fair. Why then is it unreasonable to expect the actions of these officers to be subject to investigation? How else are we meant to get the facts?
I have no problem with encouraging an investigation. None. I know that will happen anyways. I can't imagine any police force doesn't review incidents which result in the death of a prisoner/suspect. I only have problems with people who rush to judge BEFORE they know what happened.
I guess what bothers me the most about the posters that object to public scrutiny of police actions is their protestation that it isn't fair to rush to judgment without the facts. No, of course it isn't fair. Why then is it unreasonable to expect the actions of these officers to be subject to investigation? How else are we meant to get the facts?
Why exactly does that bother you? You said yourself that it isn't fair.
It is not unreasonable to expect the actions of the officers to be investigated. With the value placed on human life I would expect there to be an investigation. In this case there surely will be.
However, the profession of law enforcement should not be bashed by implying (or even stating) that cops use excessive force and/or are not trained to deal with psych patients. Oh yea, that one about IQ, well, I won't even go there.
I guess what bothers me the most about the posters that object to public scrutiny of police actions is their protestation that it isn't fair to rush to judgment without the facts. No, of course it isn't fair. Why then is it unreasonable to expect the actions of these officers to be subject to investigation? How else are we meant to get the facts?
Specializes in Happily semi-retired; excited for the whole whammy.
Why exactly does that bother you? You said yourself that it isn't fair.
It is not unreasonable to expect the actions of the officers to be investigated. With the value placed on human life I would expect there to be an investigation. In this case there surely will be.
However, the profession of law enforcement should not be bashed by implying (or even stating) that cops use excessive force and/or are not trained to deal with psych patients. Oh yea, that one about IQ, well, I won't even go there.
Um, yeah, allrightythen. I sure do hope you have a nice day.
Information about this subject is available on www.pensacolanewsjournal.com. If you are wondering about the circumstances surrounding this particular incident, go there and see what occurred. Please do not judge us, our jail system, our police force, or our medical system before you review the facts. The man was arrested for strangling a person with a belt at a public bus stop, was arrested and released on bond, and rearrested when he failed to show up for court. While in the jail he attacked a guard, was unable to be subdued by 5 guards, was tasered twice, subdued and taken to a local hospital where he died. Autopsy report has not been released. The original poster was referring to this specific incident and another that occurred in the same jail this year also reviewed in the first newspaper article on this subject. The most ironic thing I have read so far was in an independent newspapers coverage of the Santa Rosa jail(in a neighboring county) in which the head of the jail said the Taser was a godsend because whenever the guards had to overpower a prisoner with overwhelming physical force from multiple guards, there were always multiple broken bones and head wounds to prisoners and guards due to all the concrete and steel in that environment. While everyone has a personal account of incidents like this one, let's keep it on track and judge solely on what's been proven about what actually happened with this specific tragedy. Thanks from all of us in Pensacola Florida.
Information about this subject is available on www.pensacolanewsjournal.com. If you are wondering about the circumstances surrounding this particular incident, go there and see what occurred. Please do not judge us, our jail system, our police force, or our medical system before you review the facts. The man was arrested for strangling a person with a belt at a public bus stop, was arrested and released on bond, and rearrested when he failed to show up for court. While in the jail he attacked a guard, was unable to be subdued by 5 guards, was tasered twice, subdued and taken to a local hospital where he died. Autopsy report has not been released. The original poster was referring to this specific incident and another that occurred in the same jail this year also reviewed in the first newspaper article on this subject. The most ironic thing I have read so far was in an independent newspapers coverage of the Santa Rosa jail(in a neighboring county) in which the head of the jail said the Taser was a godsend because whenever the guards had to overpower a prisoner with overwhelming physical force from multiple guards, there were always multiple broken bones and head wounds to prisoners and guards due to all the concrete and steel in that environment. While everyone has a personal account of incidents like this one, let's keep it on track and judge solely on what's been proven about what actually happened with this specific tragedy. Thanks from all of us in Pensacola Florida.
Information about this subject is available on www.pensacolanewsjournal.com. If you are wondering about the circumstances surrounding this particular incident, go there and see what occurred. Please do not judge us, our jail system, our police force, or our medical system before you review the facts. The man was arrested for strangling a person with a belt at a public bus stop, was arrested and released on bond, and rearrested when he failed to show up for court. While in the jail he attacked a guard, was unable to be subdued by 5 guards, was tasered twice, subdued and taken to a local hospital where he died. Autopsy report has not been released. The original poster was referring to this specific incident and another that occurred in the same jail this year also reviewed in the first newspaper article on this subject. The most ironic thing I have read so far was in an independent newspapers coverage of the Santa Rosa jail(in a neighboring county) in which the head of the jail said the Taser was a godsend because whenever the guards had to overpower a prisoner with overwhelming physical force from multiple guards, there were always multiple broken bones and head wounds to prisoners and guards due to all the concrete and steel in that environment. While everyone has a personal account of incidents like this one, let's keep it on track and judge solely on what's been proven about what actually happened with this specific tragedy. Thanks from all of us in Pensacola Florida.
Thanks for the info. It's always nice to read the facts in a case like this. Hopefully, we will learn that the death was accidental and the use of force was justified since we all know that it isn't always the case. I believe your state had a recent incident of a young man who was murdered by correctional officers and there was an attempt to cover it up with an erroneous autopsy report? Hoping it is an isolated incident...........
Just my opinion, but suddenly this thread got turned on its ear when the subject got onto whether or not the police were "right" to Taser.
That's only a small part of this problem, and the one that requires the least amount of thought, the least amount of effort, the least amount of research.
No, let's look at the issues. The primary issue embodied in this story is that society has failed to effectively help the mentally ill and all the other issues spring from that. Here are only a few of them:
*Because they are mentally ill, they contribute less to society and therefore they have less inherent worth to society. Therefore, though we can spend literally millions of dollars making a preemie crack baby better, the healthcare system cannot find the money to efffectively treat these people. Why is that? Is the mentally ill person any less a victim of a condition than that crack baby?
*They may have drugs in their system that may interact unfavorably with being Tasered, or that can cause heart conditions or EPS that may make them look "strange" to people, thus coming into the radar of law enforcement in the first place.
Even a fully compliant schizophrenic can have a psychotic break. Psych nurses, you know it is true. You don't simply get control over a matter of hours with an illness like schizophrenia; it takes weeks, months, years. Or maybe never.
Did you know that Geodon and many other psych meds can cause a heart condition? So that the mentally ill person who IS compliant, yet still has a psychotic break, can be Tasered, die as a result, and then be branded a "drug user"?
*There is an issue with the safety and the implementation of Tasers by law enforcement. There is very little research on Tasers. The best information I could find comes from Amnesty International.
I supplied a few other websites that graphically demonstrated Tasering when there was NO obvious threat to the officers. It appears that Tasers can be misused.
Even the media is running scared. Suddenly, stories correlating Taser use and death have literally disappeared from news sources because the Taser manufacturer has aggressively sued anyone who associates Taser use with death. Suddenly Taser deaths cannot even be reported as having a strong correlation with death. ME's can only hint around that a Taser was used before a suspect died, and some new condition called "hyperexcitablity" suddenly is a deadly new street disease. The fact that this new medical condition rarely occurs outside of police involvement and Taser use has yet to be explained.
I also have to add that "drug use" has been implicated in a number of these Taser deaths, but no distinction is ever made between street drugs and prescribed drugs. Who knows but that the poor soul who was Tasered and died later of a heart attack was on some MAOI inhibitor or Prozac or Xanax, Ativan, Ambien?
The failure of society--OUR failure--to adequately care for the mentally ill among us should be sobering. These deaths should be considered OUR responsibility as citizens, if not healthcare professionals. The fact that police officers, like nurses, are in a Catch-22 of society's making, should make us want to discuss the problem and try to get a handle on a workable solution.
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SharonH, RN
2,144 Posts
Actually you can. If people are dying from the use of taser guns, then their use needs to be reevaluated. A lot of the deaths from the tasers are the result of officers not using them judiciously anyway. This should be assessed before more innocent people die needlessly.