Very disturbing...one of our frequent psych patients (d/c'd) was picked up by the police. For what, I don't know. But I've never known the guy to assaultive. Agitated at times, yes. Assaultive, no.
Police apparently had him and he got agitated. He was Taser'd a few times and died when he got to our hospital.
This is the fourth time *this year* that police in our area have ended up killing a psych patient. Mostly from Tasering, once from being 'restrained' according to the news.
I just think police need some training on dealing with mentally ill people. This is a crying shame. Mentally ill and agitated is not the same as criminal!
There's not much choice between the two. Locked up in a mental hospital for life or full freedom with the distinct possibility of spending that time in jail for various reasons. Two ends of the spectrum without a fence to ride.
What would be considered 'in the middle'?
As I see it, there IS a choice between the two, but that choice has yet to be determined because the mentally ill have no real power in society, so therefore, no one really cares to create a choice for them.
Maybe a good middle ground would begin with community resources that keep the mentally ill living in their own homes and having meds, emergency treatment, and medical as well as legal advocates available to them, 24/7.
And a Psych SWAT Team on call for emergencies, 24/7, with the goal to be to keep the patient from harming himself or others, and to gain compliance with treatment methods.
The way it is now, if someone behaves bizarrely, whether they're armed or not (and once again, I refer you to the stories whose websites I posted way back in the beginning of this thread), maybe we need to rethink exactly why we're locking someone up and Tasering someone for that behavior instead of restraining them and treating them.
I should probably add that in the main, I have all the respect in the world for police officers. Most are very good people and they do a wonderful job.
My main issue is not with the officers, per se, it's with the Tasers. At first, I thought they were great. But all these deaths after being Tasered? No, something's wrong there.
And the lack of community resources for our mentally ill--but I already went there a few times in this thread, and too many of you agree with me to revisit that again.
You said it yourself, you don't know. You wern't there, and don't know what happened. Who knows what the suspect did in the police station? The only fact known is that a police officer felt it necessary to use force to subdue a suspect. Be glad that in your town, police are allowed to use tasers; in my state is is illegal, they can not carry tasers or nightsticks. If more force is needed to protect an officer, they must use deadly force.
Unfortunately when a suspect is fighting with police or doing something liable to harm himself or others, they do not have the luxury of sitting back and wondering if he's a psych patient or if there is some explanation for the behavior. It does not matter WHY the suspect is behaving the way he is, they can only deal with putting a stop to the behavior. It does not matter in hindsight that somebody says "oh, he was never violent with me, or he would never hurt anyone, I've never known him to be assualtive, or he was psychotic not criminal...".
You know, I am really disturbed by the posts degrading other professionals on here. This thread is just one example. After reading the responses here, it is obvious that most of the nurses have absolutely NO knowledge of police work. Why are some nurses so quick to jump all over another profession without giving them some benefit of the doubt? Doctors, paramedics, PAs, CNAs, police officers, EMTs, they get bashed on this board. Personally, until I have FACTS that say otherwise, I will always give fellow public-service professions the benefit of the doubt, just as I hope I would get.
I am tired of the general public judging nurses, doctors, police officers, ect., based on what the public thinks should happen after the fact. All of these professions have to act in a split second with actions that can save a life or take a life. I doubt any nurse goes to work wanting a patient to die under her care, but they do. I doubt any cop goes to work wanting to have to tazer/shoot a criminal and see them die as a result, but it happens.
So why not title this "Psych patient dies after being tasered by police."
No, it's much more inflammatory to say "patient is killed by police."
I know it will never change, because it's always much better to blame someone, especially a cop, doctor, or nurse for anyone's death. And I'm sure next time there's a headline that says something like "Nurse kills man with morphine" nurses everywhere will be up in arms, shouting the nurse was only doing her job. And some joe-public will say "nurses should be TRAINED to give morphine correctly!" and "Why was that nurses allowed to give morphine, she should have given tylenol?" "why did the nurse come in there with her syringe out, she should have tried a pill first!!??"
And nurses will sigh, because joe-public does not know what happened in the situation, and as a nurse we will give the benefit of the doubt that our fellow nurse did what she was TRAINED to do in a specific situation which she felt was the best course of action.
I think our fellow public service professions deserve more respect. And I don't blame any cop for drawing his gun or using a taser when ever he feels threatened. My husband wears a bullet proof vest to work for a reason, and that's so even if some jacked-up criminal threatens his life, he can still come home to my daughter and me.
I am interested in a link to a news story about this incident, and I would also like to know which police department has has 4 tazer deaths in one year. That is certainly newsworth information, and worth following up on.
And rest assurred, there will be a lawsuit, someone will get a hefty settlement, and taxes will go up. If you all knew how much police departments actually got sued and settled, and how much money is paid out for total nonsense and then added onto taxpayers bills, you'd be suprised. And you never hear about any of it on the news.
As the wife of a police officer I couldn't agree with you more. You said everything I was thinking. I am proud of my husband and know everything he does on the job is so he can come home safely to our children. We do need to reapect other professions!
I have personally seen someone being tased. Once you are tased you pretty much can't do anything but go to the ground. The guy i saw tased was 5'8" and weighs probably 120 lbs. He went straight to the ground and didn't get up until the taser stopped. The taser only fires for 10 sec each time the trigger is pulled and the trigger can only be pulled 3 times before you have to change the cartridge.
Your reaction to being tased depends on a lot of variables. Some people will be combative again really quickly, even though most won't. It's like pepper spray. My brother was sprayed and it took him out (he's over 6 feet and about 200lb), but he's seen someone high on PCP barely even blink from it. I still think tasers are preferable to guns in most instances. Obviously this man did have a history of being violent. I don't consider choking someone to be a minor thing, so it's entirely possible he was violent with the police as well. I'll wait till the investigation is out to call them killers.
I don't think anyone is arguing that the taser is "kind" or "gentle." I do think some are arguing that it is better than the alternatives. Those who are anti-taser, what do you suggest as an alternative that will effectively subdue the target without risking the officer?
Your reaction to being tased depends on a lot of variables. Some people will be combative again really quickly, even though most won't. It's like pepper spray. My brother was sprayed and it took him out (he's over 6 feet and about 200lb), but he's seen someone high on PCP barely even blink from it. I still think tasers are preferable to guns in most instances. Obviously this man did have a history of being violent. I don't consider choking someone to be a minor thing, so it's entirely possible he was violent with the police as well. I'll wait till the investigation is out to call them killers.
I agree. It does depend on what you have in your system. I am not saying that I agree with tasing or disagree. I think it is much better than the alternative, a gun, though. I agree we should wait for the investigation before we jump to conclusions. We weren't there!!
Specializes in Education, Acute, Med/Surg, Tele, etc.
When it comes to psych pts of any kind, I have learned compassion and a lot of respect for their situation! Our hospital as of late has become a holding ground for psych pts that can not find appropriate care or housing..and can wait weeks or even more than a month at our facility that doesn't even have proper rooms for them till they find placement! We nurses try to take it with a grain of salt...we care, we do our best, we fight for a pts rights...but you loose that momentarily if you are a harm to self or others (within reason!). I find that to be the same for police with basic human rights as well leading the way for judgement!
One day...I heard a yell from my pts room. I ran to see what was up, and a large man with dementia had the CNA pinned on the floor (and he was BIG as in tall and muscle!). She was totally helpless and struggling to free herself and then he started to pull down her pants!
I freaked! I got a hold of his head using my hands on his jaw and back of the head and moved his head down to the floor...where the head goes the body follows, and instructed the CNA to use her right leg against his and flip him on the count of three with all her might. I was lucky..she knew what to do, she positioned her foot to the distal apect of hers and used her thigh and knee to flip him over.
I got her out...and still no responce from security which I screamed for (well then again time does pass slower! LOL). I got him on the floor on his back and I was fully grounded besides him. I grabbed his arm, pulled it above his head, and held the thumb tightly in a position if he moved he would have a bit of pain (I learned this from Police in defence classes for the healthcare provider). He stayed immoble till I lost my concentration on it when explining what happened to the security!
Then, in front of them...he used his other hand between my legs to do something very innaproprite with a finger! I jumped basically (use your imagination), and he had 3 guys on him in an instant!
The investigation said that I should have tried to talk the pt out of the assult against the CNA....WHAT? He had her pinned and was removing her pants!!!!!!! But otherwise I was found to have used the least amount of force and injury to subdue the pt.
Sadly...he was about to move to a facility and this incident had him staying longer because the facilty chosen wouldn't take him after that. But...that wasn't my fault!!!!! Heck, what if a poor CNA or RN or PT was under him in that facility..would they have known what to do????
I was under investigation for a while so they could look over the case. I was found in the right!
No it wasn't deadly force..but ask me if I had the use of a tazzer if I would have used it...or if I had a needle of ativan or inapsine??? Well..the meds yes right away to control the situation, tazzer if I had been trained! But the fact remained...he was a danger to another and assulting them in my sites...pt or not, I must stop that if I can't get security there in a timely mannor!
I am sure some folks would say I was too mean...yeah, he wasn't injured in any way! But still...the investigation took forever to prove I was okay!
I don't see this any different from Police actions in the most part...so I will trust the investigation will do what it needs to and help this situation to the best possible outcome.
Triage - that is an absolutely horrible situation. Was this patient ever held accountable for his actions? For the attempted assault on the CNA and the assault on you? Did your facility simply put you under scrutiny, or did you go to the police? I can understand compassion for those who are mentally ill, but there comes a time when a line is crossed and you both were clearly victims in this situation.
While my husband would not hesistate to defend himself, other officers or civilians from a dangerous individual, he's also made plenty of aluminum foil hats for folks who are being treated outpatient and are too scared to go to sleep because of their delusions.
Triage - that is an absolutely horrible situation. Was this patient ever held accountable for his actions? For the attempted assault on the CNA and the assault on you? Did your facility simply put you under scrutiny, or did you go to the police? I can understand compassion for those who are mentally ill, but there comes a time when a line is crossed and you both were clearly victims in this situation.
Blee
If he had dementia, then how could he be held accountable for his actions? Am I going to read arguments that dementia does not excuse someone from not knowing what they were doing?
Specializes in Education, Acute, Med/Surg, Tele, etc.
Oh gee..go figure..it was Excused related to dementia and I wound up having him as a pt 4 more times! All without incident thank GOD!
I am agency though...not that it would be different if I was staff...money is to be made from him being there...I am certainly expendable or easy to cover up...that is the game they play. And that is not limited to nursing!
I did not have a probelm with the assult as much as knowing someone else would have a much harder time of it than I...not that a finger in certain orifaces doesn't bug me, just the fact I was more concerned for the safety of pt and staff at the time...it was very surreal.
No...he didn't face charges, I didn't get charges for abuse or needless restraint/aggressiveness...
That was not the only case with this man either...I also went into his room to change his depends and he grabbed my hand while I was cleaning him and used it in a way most inappropriate for a second before I tore my hand away..that is actually what saved me from any charges..I documented that like crazy, and I called the MD when it happened! The MD actually came to make sure I was okay! So that was on record....
But I am sorry...I see a CNA trapped under a patient trying to get her pants off...I am surpised I didn't over react and do something harmful to him! But I didn't...and for some reason that gives me some trust in myself to do the right thing...but then again..each situation is different!
The investigation said that I should have tried to talk the pt out of the assult against the CNA....WHAT? He had her pinned and was removing her pants!!!!!!!
I've got a real problem with this. I sometimes wonder if people who make these rulings have ever had a patient attack them. So ... were you still supposed to talk the patient out of the assault if the patient had actually been raping the CNA?
I've only been attacked a couple of times but, that was enough for me. I don't care what anybody says. If I'm attacked I'm not going to sit there and try to "talk them down." I'm going to defend myself and if that means an investigation so be it.
When did mental illness become an excuse for violence? When did the healthcare profession decide that we have to take beatings and god knows what else because these patients "don't know what they're doing." Maybe they don't know what they are doing but they sure know how to throw a punch and do a hellava lot of damage.
I'm not surprised that security didn't respond promptly when you called. You'd think that corrections nurses are in danger a lot of the time but they're not ... why? Because there's a ton of corrections officers around who will take down a patient any time there's trouble.
Who gets beaten more than anybody else? ER and psych nurses because security typically isn't around and you're supposed to try to "de-escalate" the situation beforehand. Of course by then, you can be seriously injured.
I know that a lot of these rules were made to try to prevent the abuses of the past but, at the same time, I think the pendulum may have swung too far in the other direction.
Specializes in Education, Acute, Med/Surg, Tele, etc.
I look at it this way SharonH....if a demented pt kills someone...it is still murder under our society because murder is not right. It is when someone isn't murdered that it becomes a probelm...so then it goes straight to situation!
I didn't harm the pt, although I could have easily done so by pure instinct...I am so proud I didn't! However...if we go around saying demented pts are excused from improper behaviour that risks self and others..aren't we being a little two sided?
It is not an easy answer...too many factors! But I hold a demented pt to the same standards...do not harm self or others! And if they do so it is my job, and the job of security/police to stop the situation..and let the courts choose if it was right, wrong or indifferent! So in essence...my job is straight forward...it is up to the courts to deal with the other aspects....that is NOT my training or scope!
UM Review RN, ASN, RN
1 Article; 5,163 Posts
As I see it, there IS a choice between the two, but that choice has yet to be determined because the mentally ill have no real power in society, so therefore, no one really cares to create a choice for them.
Maybe a good middle ground would begin with community resources that keep the mentally ill living in their own homes and having meds, emergency treatment, and medical as well as legal advocates available to them, 24/7.
And a Psych SWAT Team on call for emergencies, 24/7, with the goal to be to keep the patient from harming himself or others, and to gain compliance with treatment methods.
The way it is now, if someone behaves bizarrely, whether they're armed or not (and once again, I refer you to the stories whose websites I posted way back in the beginning of this thread), maybe we need to rethink exactly why we're locking someone up and Tasering someone for that behavior instead of restraining them and treating them.
I should probably add that in the main, I have all the respect in the world for police officers. Most are very good people and they do a wonderful job.
My main issue is not with the officers, per se, it's with the Tasers. At first, I thought they were great. But all these deaths after being Tasered? No, something's wrong there.
And the lack of community resources for our mentally ill--but I already went there a few times in this thread, and too many of you agree with me to revisit that again.