Very disturbing...one of our frequent psych patients (d/c'd) was picked up by the police. For what, I don't know. But I've never known the guy to assaultive. Agitated at times, yes. Assaultive, no.
Police apparently had him and he got agitated. He was Taser'd a few times and died when he got to our hospital.
This is the fourth time *this year* that police in our area have ended up killing a psych patient. Mostly from Tasering, once from being 'restrained' according to the news.
I just think police need some training on dealing with mentally ill people. This is a crying shame. Mentally ill and agitated is not the same as criminal!
You said it yourself, you don't know. You wern't there, and don't know what happened. Who knows what the suspect did in the police station? The only fact known is that a police officer felt it necessary to use force to subdue a suspect. Be glad that in your town, police are allowed to use tasers; in my state is is illegal, they can not carry tasers or nightsticks. If more force is needed to protect an officer, they must use deadly force.
Unfortunately when a suspect is fighting with police or doing something liable to harm himself or others, they do not have the luxury of sitting back and wondering if he's a psych patient or if there is some explanation for the behavior. It does not matter WHY the suspect is behaving the way he is, they can only deal with putting a stop to the behavior. It does not matter in hindsight that somebody says "oh, he was never violent with me, or he would never hurt anyone, I've never known him to be assualtive, or he was psychotic not criminal...".
You know, I am really disturbed by the posts degrading other professionals on here. This thread is just one example. After reading the responses here, it is obvious that most of the nurses have absolutely NO knowledge of police work. Why are some nurses so quick to jump all over another profession without giving them some benefit of the doubt? Doctors, paramedics, PAs, CNAs, police officers, EMTs, they get bashed on this board. Personally, until I have FACTS that say otherwise, I will always give fellow public-service professions the benefit of the doubt, just as I hope I would get.
I am tired of the general public judging nurses, doctors, police officers, ect., based on what the public thinks should happen after the fact. All of these professions have to act in a split second with actions that can save a life or take a life. I doubt any nurse goes to work wanting a patient to die under her care, but they do. I doubt any cop goes to work wanting to have to tazer/shoot a criminal and see them die as a result, but it happens.
So why not title this "Psych patient dies after being tasered by police."
No, it's much more inflammatory to say "patient is killed by police."
I know it will never change, because it's always much better to blame someone, especially a cop, doctor, or nurse for anyone's death. And I'm sure next time there's a headline that says something like "Nurse kills man with morphine" nurses everywhere will be up in arms, shouting the nurse was only doing her job. And some joe-public will say "nurses should be TRAINED to give morphine correctly!" and "Why was that nurses allowed to give morphine, she should have given tylenol?" "why did the nurse come in there with her syringe out, she should have tried a pill first!!??"
And nurses will sigh, because joe-public does not know what happened in the situation, and as a nurse we will give the benefit of the doubt that our fellow nurse did what she was TRAINED to do in a specific situation which she felt was the best course of action.
I think our fellow public service professions deserve more respect. And I don't blame any cop for drawing his gun or using a taser when ever he feels threatened. My husband wears a bullet proof vest to work for a reason, and that's so even if some jacked-up criminal threatens his life, he can still come home to my daughter and me.
I am interested in a link to a news story about this incident, and I would also like to know which police department has has 4 tazer deaths in one year. That is certainly newsworth information, and worth following up on.
And rest assurred, there will be a lawsuit, someone will get a hefty settlement, and taxes will go up. If you all knew how much police departments actually got sued and settled, and how much money is paid out for total nonsense and then added onto taxpayers bills, you'd be suprised. And you never hear about any of it on the news.
ITA!!
I am really tired of the "Let's always blame the police", which is almost as common as "Let's always blame the nurse." Yes, there are bad apples in both groups, but until it is you or yours that is in danger from an unknown and volatile person, you really don't know how it is.
We weren't there.
The other thing that should be considered. If this individual is that well known to the healthcare community, chances are that the individual was prescribed meds, therapy, social services and/or OP support services. If the individual was indeed acting out or behaving a dangerous manner, there is a good likelihood that they were not being compliant with meds/therapy, were not doing appropriate followup care, etc.
I have had any number of patients that were provided w/safe housing, their meds and social support, just to abandon all of those things and bounce right back into the hospital, because they cannot/will not care for themselves.
Do they have any responsibility for their condition?
How many times when we read about someone dying/becoming incapacitated from medical conditions that they were treated for but noncompliant with that treatment, and their family sues a healthcare worker/facility?
As I think about it, I distinguish between police being called to a public place because a mentally ill person is acting strangly v. overt violent behavior. It just seems that there are so many instances of police being called to a parking lot, store, etc because a schitzophrenic is talking to himself and it scares the customers. This seems to be where the situations really escalate, and I wish we could see different training and outcomes. I am less distressed when there is actual violent behavior which must be met with force by police. I hope this makes sense.
And re: the IQ comment about police officers. Perhaps the same should apply to registered nurses. Expressive superiority is the one thing I really can't stand about so many members of my profession.
Please get off the high horse. Reading the last sentence of the IQ comment it was obviously meant to be a joke. I was certain, though, that even if it *had* been meant to be serious, no doubt the issue of nurses and IQ tests would have come up in response.
This confirms for me that mental illness is the worst kind of illness a person can have. Incredibly sad. I highly doubt many cops see the glory in having to use such drastic measures to control a person. It's just a bad situation all the way around. There is no happy ending in a situation like this for anyone.
Blame, Blame, Blame!!! This is a sociological and political issue!
Take a deep breath...imagine you are the spouse of a cop who taser-ed a violent psych pt who ended up in jail. Your loved one ends up doing CPR and riding in the EMS to the ER where the Pt is pronounced.
Isn't EVERYBODY unhappy? Victimized?
Here's the question: What liberties should we allow/guarantee for persons who have been diagnosed as lacking in the ability to correctly assess their environment? Should we lock them all away for life "for their own good"? That made sense 50yrs ago.
Are we willng to 'lose' (that should not be prettified).....Are we willing to see locked up and perhaps brutallized or even killed--a certain small percentage of our (I will use the word) insane family members, friends and fellow citizens.
In the USA we seem to have decided that that risk is worth taking so that the majority of our psych pts can have a future in freedom. The flip side is that the small percentage that simply cannot/will not live in a free society end up on the conscience of that those police officers who we count on to keep US safe in a world that--let's admit it--includes violent predatory (but sane) people.
I repeat--this is a political decision. It was made years ago. If we don't like it we can change it. Does anyone want a return to the 50s?
Can we find a better way to live with the decisions that included the psych population with the general population? Probably we can. Would it take a change in the system? Of course it would. Can individual nurses and police officers change this system? Of course not.
Stop the stupid part of this discussion!!! It's to important!!!
Do they have any responsibility for their condition?
You know, that's a pretty good question, but far from an easy one. Should the mentally ill be accountable for their mental illness? I'm overweight and smoke. If I develop cancer or heart disease, I arguably have no grounds to complain about it. If I develop paranoid schizophrenia, is that my fault?
Many people with mental illness are less than compliant with their meds. That's crazy, but then, so are they. Of course, many mentally ill patents are functioning at a fairly high level and are probably quite capable of doing things for themselves like taking meds, coping with side-effects, etc., but others are far less capable. We tend to talk about psych meds as though one is perfectly sane while taking them, but how realistic is that?
It's wrong, of course, to generalize about an entire class of public servants based upon the publicized misdeeds of a renegade few. There are thousands of dedicated police officers in this country who never laid a hand on Rodney King, for example, and I wouldn't begin to guess what percentage have ever committed any act of police brutality. I can recall when I was a young man with long hair and a Sheriff's Deputy held the door for me going into a McDonald's. I can recall being stopped by a State Trooper for a burnt out headlight on my beat up old car, and being addressed as "sir." Evidently, there are cops out there who take pride in their profession, and I respect the hell out of that.
On the other hand, if there is to be any honor in uniformed service, be it police or military, then those who digrace themselves in uniform disgrace the uniform, too. Most soldiers never even have the opportunity to torture POWs, and I have to believe that most wouldn't do it, if they had the chance. But the actions of some stain the reputation of all, and those who excuse, condone, or cover up the actions are welcoming the stain. So it is with the police. If police are honorable, they should be first to condemn the dishonor of the few.
Should the same standard apply to a civilian profession, such as nursing? That, too, is a good question. If we wish to be respected as a profession, I think we have a responsibility to police ourselves. To a large extent, I think we do that. We probably all hear stories of conscientious nurses making honest mistakes and sympathize with the nurse. It's natural to think "That could happen to me." Or at least to wonder if it could. Are we dishonorable to think some mistakes can be forgiven and treated as learning experiences?
But then, in cases of intentional malfeasance or gross negligence, I think we tend to be far less forgiving. Who among us will make excuses for the nurse in NJ, I think it was, accused of murdering patients?
More to my point, I don't particularly believe that my work as a nurse should accord me any greater respect than ordinary people. I work hard at a tough job. So does the guy or gal who makes my Whopper. I occassionally play a part in making life-or-death decisions. (In my case, that often means seeing the need to call for back-up--but that counts, too.) Cab drivers, carpenters, and the guy or gal who makes sure that Whopper is fully cooked may be making life-or-death decisions, too.
It has been the custom in our society to afford uniformed services, including the police, a degree of honor higher than that of civilians, and I believe that honor is deserved. It would take a pretty long stretch to suggest that I, as a nurse, risk my life in service to my fellows. I guess I could get run over in the parking lot on my way to work, but I'm not asking for any medals for that. Police officers, soldiers, firefighters and others undertake grave risk in the course of their work. But if they are willing to accept the tacit agreement that they are, in some sense, better than the rest of us (honor), I do believe they have an obligation to actually be better than the rest of us.
Based on the information posted, I can't say whether the police acted improperly in the case discussed. I do think it's fair to say that a series of such incidents suggests a pattern, and whether it's a system problem, such as inadequate training or understaffing, or an instance of individual culpability, it needs to be investigated, and corrected. Honor demands that.
I asked a few pages back for RNs to identify the specific tactics they use to safely deal with a mental patient and subdue the type of situation the police face. I'm still waiting. I'm beginning to think that everyone who is so sure the police are "killing" mental health patients (due to not knowing the "right" way to deal with these patients) should be on-call for those police officers and show up to the calls they are facing so they can show them exactly how it should be done. Of course you'll want to leave your Ativan behind as police are not allowed to use chemical restraints.
And re: the IQ comment about police officers. Perhaps the same should apply to registered nurses. Expressive superiority is the one thing I really can't stand about so many members of my profession.
You're joking about the Ativan, right? I'm a neuro nurse. I never leave the house without a pocketful. People are nuts!
it's really sad. i think it's really difficult for the policemen to deal with psych patients for they're not trained to a situation wherein they'll face one.
i really think that the policemen should have some exposure to some convention about diffirent kinds of people and how to deal with them, individually. besides, they're also dealing with lives. and they should be thought that police brutality isn't one way of taming agressive or assaultive person.
it's just sad that people were hurt by those who should've help them in the first place.
i just hope, people superior to those policemen should take action about it.
it's really sad. i think it's really difficult for the policemen to deal with psych patients for they're not trained to a situation wherein they'll face one.
i really think that the policemen should have some exposure to some convention about diffirent kinds of people and how to deal with them, individually. besides, they're also dealing with lives. and they should be thought that police brutality isn't one way of taming agressive or assaultive person.
it's just sad that people were hurt by those who should've help them in the first place.
i just hope, people superior to those policemen should take action about it.
Don't forget about the police officers who are policewomen!
After reading this thread I think the main question/concern that pops into my mind is why was this man released from the Psych Facility? It seems that the release of this patient is where the problem lies. Not only does the law enforcement community not have the resources to deal with mentally ill peoples it seems that the health care community is lacking as well.
A very interesting thread! I'm not a nurse yet so I hope no one objects to me jumping in here with my worth. I'm still in the law enforcement business so maybe I can contribute something useful.
Believe me, cops are trained to deal with psych patients. I have had MANY MANY inservice training classes dealing with the mentally ill. Also, over the years, I have dealt with MANY MANY mentally ill persons. Fortunately, most encounters have gone well. I have never taken a person's life, and hope I never have to. Fellow officers I know have been placed in that situation (taking a life), and it really affects them.
Every profession has it's bad apples. You all can be assured that most police officers take their profession seriously, and do the absolute best that they can. They have a profound concern for their fellow man and often go to extraordinary lengths to serve their community. Many times this puts them at considerable risk of personal injury or even death. They don't complain, that's what they signed up to do. Cops get called to the worst situations, they are usually going in when everybody else is running out. Please don't judge them too harshly when things don't always go as hoped for. Life isn't always perfect and pretty.
That said, violent conflict stresses the human system to the max. In addition to mental illness, throw in some bad drug reactions, maybe some illicit drugs too, alcohol, poor health, you name it, and then a taser jolt on top of all that and it's not hard to see why some people just "check out". The ol' body just can't take it.
Fortunately, my law enforcing today is done from the comfort of an air conditioned aircraft. I'm nearly 50 years of age and I've done my time in the trenches of big city law enforcement, and I have the scars and medals to prove it. So I think I deserve the break. I was never issued the taser but I did use pepper spray, and got sprayed during the fight a few times too.:chuckle
I could tell some stories about my experiences with nurses and other medical personnel as a police officer. I could start a thread about what it's like to be a cop and a patient at the same time! My only visits to the ER have been due to injuries received in the line of duty. But it would serve no purpose and I would get flamed for bashing nurses. I agree with lurksalot that one should not bash a profession based on the conduct of a few, especially when one doesn't have all the facts anyway.
You know, that's a pretty good question, but far from an easy one. Should the mentally ill be accountable for their mental illness? I'm overweight and smoke. If I develop cancer or heart disease, I arguably have no grounds to complain about it. If I develop paranoid schizophrenia, is that my fault?
Many people with mental illness are less than compliant with their meds. That's crazy, but then, so are they. Of course, many mentally ill patents are functioning at a fairly high level and are probably quite capable of doing things for themselves like taking meds, coping with side-effects, etc., but others are far less capable. We tend to talk about psych meds as though one is perfectly sane while taking them, but how realistic is that?
There is a problem with this attitude.
Mental Illness does not equal insane, nor that they are all necessarily incapacitated by their disease.
My sister is mental ill. She was fine, completely lucid, able to raise her child and work while on her meds. But like many people (w/chronic medical/psch issues), she does like taking those meds and they are "inconvenient. They make her (list of excuses) gain weight, have water retention, are incompatible with alcohol use, feel tired, require avoiding excess sun exposure, staying well hydrated, etc.
She continually went off the meds or did not obey the simple instructions that kept the disease in control, because being off the meds, gives her a "high" and makes her feel good, is easier with less rules to follow (her words, not mine). This was her choice. And she is classed as disabled because of it.
I have ulcerative colitis, w/severe inflammatory changes in my joints. If I go off my meds, eat improperly, drink excess alcohol, do not maintain proper hydration, am in excessive heat, do not get more than adequate rest...I will have a flare up of either or both problems. It is extremely inconvenient at times, and not nearly as much "fun" to obey these rules, but if I want to remain a productive member of society, I must obey them. The pills make me gain weight, I have to drink enough fluid to keep me going to bathroom a lot (highly inconvenient), I have to avoid most alcohol, and I have to rest alot and avoid heat (as a native Floridian, I cannot live there anymore). And obeying the "rules" have kept me out of the hospital, and taking fewer sick days than my "healthy' coworkers.
While there are patients with chronic disorders (medical or psych) that cannot maintain good control, there are many more that can maintain some reasonable control by taking proper care of themselves, but choose not to. They need to take some responsibility for doing so.
PS. The word is mentally ill, not "crazy". The vast majority of mentally ill are not even close to "insane" or "crazy". You do a disservice to them to refer to them as such.
You said it yourself, you don't know. You wern't there, and don't know what happened. Who knows what the suspect did in the police station? The only fact known is that a police officer felt it necessary to use force to subdue a suspect. Be glad that in your town, police are allowed to use tasers; in my state is is illegal, they can not carry tasers or nightsticks. If more force is needed to protect an officer, they must use deadly force.
Unfortunately when a suspect is fighting with police or doing something liable to harm himself or others, they do not have the luxury of sitting back and wondering if he's a psych patient or if there is some explanation for the behavior. It does not matter WHY the suspect is behaving the way he is, they can only deal with putting a stop to the behavior. It does not matter in hindsight that somebody says "oh, he was never violent with me, or he would never hurt anyone, I've never known him to be assualtive, or he was psychotic not criminal...".
You know, I am really disturbed by the posts degrading other professionals on here. This thread is just one example. After reading the responses here, it is obvious that most of the nurses have absolutely NO knowledge of police work. Why are some nurses so quick to jump all over another profession without giving them some benefit of the doubt? Doctors, paramedics, PAs, CNAs, police officers, EMTs, they get bashed on this board. Personally, until I have FACTS that say otherwise, I will always give fellow public-service professions the benefit of the doubt, just as I hope I would get.
I am tired of the general public judging nurses, doctors, police officers, ect., based on what the public thinks should happen after the fact. All of these professions have to act in a split second with actions that can save a life or take a life. I doubt any nurse goes to work wanting a patient to die under her care, but they do. I doubt any cop goes to work wanting to have to tazer/shoot a criminal and see them die as a result, but it happens.
So why not title this "Psych patient dies after being tasered by police."
No, it's much more inflammatory to say "patient is killed by police."
I know it will never change, because it's always much better to blame someone, especially a cop, doctor, or nurse for anyone's death. And I'm sure next time there's a headline that says something like "Nurse kills man with morphine" nurses everywhere will be up in arms, shouting the nurse was only doing her job. And some joe-public will say "nurses should be TRAINED to give morphine correctly!" and "Why was that nurses allowed to give morphine, she should have given tylenol?" "why did the nurse come in there with her syringe out, she should have tried a pill first!!??"
And nurses will sigh, because joe-public does not know what happened in the situation, and as a nurse we will give the benefit of the doubt that our fellow nurse did what she was TRAINED to do in a specific situation which she felt was the best course of action.
I think our fellow public service professions deserve more respect. And I don't blame any cop for drawing his gun or using a taser when ever he feels threatened. My husband wears a bullet proof vest to work for a reason, and that's so even if some jacked-up criminal threatens his life, he can still come home to my daughter and me.
I am interested in a link to a news story about this incident, and I would also like to know which police department has has 4 tazer deaths in one year. That is certainly newsworth information, and worth following up on.
And rest assurred, there will be a lawsuit, someone will get a hefty settlement, and taxes will go up. If you all knew how much police departments actually got sued and settled, and how much money is paid out for total nonsense and then added onto taxpayers bills, you'd be suprised. And you never hear about any of it on the news.
I agree with every thing this poster said. My DH is in law enforcement (corectional officer for the sheriff dept). They are trained (as well as every other county in our area) to deal w/ phych patients, but when a patient is fighting the officers they don't think "is this person a physch patient" they are concerned that they get the situation under control. So the it doesn't get further out of control.
As for the taser guns. The officers are trained all the time on them. They are taught when to use them, how to use them and the possible outcomes from using them. I would rather have an officer us his taser gun then his pistol anytime. When a officer fires his pistol it is considered deadly force, they shot to kill. When an officer uses his taser, it is considered non lethal force. Yes there are times when a person dies from a taser but there are people who die from pepper spray, night sticks, etc.
What I'm trying to say is this. You can't judge the use of taser guns from a few deaths. Yes they are tragic, but they happen. Deaths from taser guns are a lot lower than deaths from pistols.
worth. I'm still in the law enforcement business so maybe I can contribute something useful. 
caroladybelle, BSN, RN
5,486 Posts
ITA!!
I am really tired of the "Let's always blame the police", which is almost as common as "Let's always blame the nurse." Yes, there are bad apples in both groups, but until it is you or yours that is in danger from an unknown and volatile person, you really don't know how it is.
We weren't there.
The other thing that should be considered. If this individual is that well known to the healthcare community, chances are that the individual was prescribed meds, therapy, social services and/or OP support services. If the individual was indeed acting out or behaving a dangerous manner, there is a good likelihood that they were not being compliant with meds/therapy, were not doing appropriate followup care, etc.
I have had any number of patients that were provided w/safe housing, their meds and social support, just to abandon all of those things and bounce right back into the hospital, because they cannot/will not care for themselves.
Do they have any responsibility for their condition?
How many times when we read about someone dying/becoming incapacitated from medical conditions that they were treated for but noncompliant with that treatment, and their family sues a healthcare worker/facility?