Police Killed Our Patient

prinsessa · Jun 19, 2006

That is very sad. My brother is mentally ill. We had to call the cops on him numerous times because he was out of control (thankfully now he is doing much better). I know spouses of cops want their husbands/wives to come home, but families of mentally ill people want their loved ones to come home also. No matter how hard they are to deal with sometimes....we still love them. I don't know if the cop was in the wrong, but I think cops should be better trained to deal with mentally ill people.

ortess1971 · Jun 19, 2006

My opinion stands. In addition, I feel if someone is posing a threat of harm to a police officer, I hope the officer will ALWAYS take any means necessary to nullify the threat to the officer's life. The FACT of the matter is the original poster of this thread made a statement saying a cop KILLED the psych patient and then further went onto say the same department has killed numerous people with tasers. I would like a news article or other reputable reference that states the name of the department accused and details of such a case.
Actually, I don't like tazering one bit.
Hey, your reaction is just what I expected-- someone to come up with a bunch of videos of rogue cops or cops who have done something wrong. In fact, according to all the great links you provided, there probably aren't ANY good cops out there in the world. So of COURSE every cop is guilty of every single thing they are accussed of, because YOU'VE found internet links of some who were.
Go right ahead, keep bashing other professions, and then drudge up internet links of the minority of bad cops to make the good ones look bad. After all, all cops are guilty everytime they enforce any law, that's why they join law enforcement.
Hey, I'm sure I can find lots of links to bash nurses, god knows how corrupt and awful nurses are! In fact, nurses KILL people every day and get away with it! I heard this one hospital had, like TEN people die in one day! And those of you who don't believe me, see my links!!!
Haha, I'm not inclined to bother.

I basically agree with what you have said-although I think pepper spray should be the first choice then tazer them if that doesn't work. The cold hard fact is that these cops are doing their job and they're trying to do it without getting killed or hurt. It's unfortunate that in some circumstances, someone dies, but these men and women have to make a split second decision. They don't have the leisure of obtaining a detailed medical and psychosocial history. I'm referring to instances where someone is being very agressive and you're not sure if they have a weapon or not. The other cold hard fact is there are people out there who need to be hospitalized for mental illness or substance abuse but they cannot afford it. This is sad but if they are dangerous, I believe the cops have every right to use whatever means necessary to subdue them.

Jo Dirt · Jun 19, 2006

Cops are put in scary situations, and I think many of them have a hard time dealing with their fear/adrenaline rushes. I've seen them mace/ beat/pound/twist on a person long after he was subdued.

I think they are overly aggressive in their tactics, but at the same time, you can't play around when your life is at stake.

It's just a bad situation all the way around.

grims_mom · Jun 19, 2006

I have worked in correctional facilities and worked to restrain some mentally ill people. Some of them can be talked down....and then there are some that cannot be held down by 4 people. I have seen officers thrown off by mentally ill people while still being held by other officers. These officers do not have the option of medications to subdue and are often trying to keep the person isolated from crowded areas where problems would further escalate. I had one inmate that tried to throw an officer off of a second floor railing (another inmate managed to stop it). I am no longer in corrections but my DH is a police officer, Army medic, & civilian EMT. He will try any means necessary to "talk down before take down" as officers here are taught. The reality is that sometimes these people have reached a point of agitation where they will not/cannot let anything else in and everything is perceived as aggressive...especially if they are dealing with a stranger or someone in a uniform. Yes there are dirty cops (nurses, lawyers, etc) out there but as DH puts it he is there to "Protect and Serve, not Stop and Harass".

Jo Dirt · Jun 19, 2006

I think some people who have family in law enforcement are too quick to get defensive and arrogant and jump on a high horse when it is suggested there may be flaws in the way the legal system operates.

Well, sorry. There are flaws in just about every field including nursing AND law enforcement, and I don't blame the OP for wanting to bring light to this issue. Progess is not made by people who sit by and takes whatever comes, and we should put our arrogance and pride away and strive to make things better. I am thankful for cops, but I believe law enforcement is an area that should require IQ tests to become a cop. Cops should have a minimum IQ of 120 (and that standard could not be met by having two of them in the car).

grims_mom · Jun 19, 2006

My apology...I was not meaning to be defensive. I was just saying that I can see it from both sides and that it can be very scary for both the psych pt and the officer involved. I don't know that there is a good answer in our current political structure to get rid of these situations that would serve in the best interest of all parties. I'm sorry that you thought I was being arrogant or on a high horse when that was not my intent at all... your IQ statement on the other hand I'm not so sure about... that seems like a pretty low blow, but that's just my opinion.

capribry · Jun 19, 2006

This might upset some of you but sometimes police officers over-do things. I personally saw several police officers tased a mentally ill patient before that resulted in his death. The guy was playing in traffic and his family called the police to help him. The police stopped traffic and about 6-10 of tried to restrain him by body slamming him and sitting on top of him, restricting him from breathing as easily. Everytime he wiggle to get some air (i'm guessing that is why he was wiggling) they will tase him. He died at the scene.

I have seen plenty of incidence where police officers over use their powers which cause me to not trust them as much and to learn my rights (that is another story) You can even look at shows such as "Cops" and "World's Wildest Police Videos" to see how they act.

Sorry for going off topic, but there is a current case going on in my town about a death of a undercover police officers who was shot 10 times by a fellow officer. No suspect deserves to be shot 10 times by 1 officer especially when the suspect doesn't have any weapon and is not trying to harm that officer. The police officer that was killed was standing beside his partner and other officers who did not have their weapons drawn and did not show that they was in harms way. Let's just say that there is going to be a big lawsuit coming and I hope the family of that officer get what they deserve!!!

ortess1971 · Jun 19, 2006

I have worked in correctional facilities and worked to restrain some mentally ill people. Some of them can be talked down....and then there are some that cannot be held down by 4 people. I have seen officers thrown off by mentally ill people while still being held by other officers. These officers do not have the option of medications to subdue and are often trying to keep the person isolated from crowded areas where problems would further escalate. I had one inmate that tried to throw an officer off of a second floor railing (another inmate managed to stop it). I am no longer in corrections but my DH is a police officer, Army medic, & civilian EMT. He will try any means necessary to "talk down before take down" as officers here are taught. The reality is that sometimes these people have reached a point of agitation where they will not/cannot let anything else in and everything is perceived as aggressive...especially if they are dealing with a stranger or someone in a uniform. Yes there are dirty cops (nurses, lawyers, etc) out there but as DH puts it he is there to "Protect and Serve, not Stop and Harass".

Exactly, and there are also plenty of criminals who claim to be mentally ill when it's convenient. My argument is that a cop can't tell in a split second who is homicidal, or mentally ill. In my state in the last year there was a cop who lost his life to someone who shot him dead in his own office, and then was able to find a way out of the building. When they caught him, he was making some rather elaborate plans to escape the state. To me, this speaks of someone who knew exactly what he was doing. He wasn't even under arrest when he shot the police officer-he was being questioned in an assault of an elderly woman. Now he is crying "police brutality" because the cops were "rough" with him when arresting him. Sorry, but I can't muster any sympathy for a cop killer. Also, he confessed both to the attack on the old lady and the murder of the police officer. Very sad situation because this cop was a decent man who had a wife and 2 daughters, I believe.

nurseT · Jun 19, 2006

Very disturbing...one of our frequent psych patients (d/c'd) was picked up by the police. For what, I don't know. But I've never known the guy to assaultive. Agitated at times, yes. Assaultive, no.
Police apparently had him and he got agitated. He was Taser'd a few times and died when he got to our hospital.
This is the fourth time *this year* that police in our area have ended up killing a psych patient. Mostly from Tasering, once from being 'restrained' according to the news.
I just think police need some training on dealing with mentally ill people. This is a crying shame. Mentally ill and agitated is not the same as criminal!

Dear Meerkat, that is always sad. The entire situation with mental heathcare in this country is sad. I haven't read all the responses, so at the risk of repeating, I'll say this: I work with the police. I am an RN in Public Health who works the county jail. The police consult with me often, and they too are very concerned about this issue. They are not nurses, the person on the street who is out of control could be anybody from a high profile govt. employee's kid who decided to get high, to a mental pt. They call mental pts "10-96" We had a mental pt who was gravely impaired and thought he was spiderman. One of his favorite passtimes was cagefighting. Cagefighting is a no rules fist fight in a cage. He entered tournaments all the time. This mental pt was buff, rippled muscles like he was cut out of rock. anyway, he was a paranoid psychotic who had been off his meds. He thought he was a superhero. He walks into the local cop shop, rips off his shirt and say's " come on you M-Fers, I'll kick all your a***s". They did everything they knew to talk him out of it. They ended up using the tazer. He laughed at them and wrestled it away from the cops and shot them with it, he put one cop in the hospital. It took six big cops to cuff him and the only injuries he obtained was minor abrasions. It could have been much worse. I begged the local mental health facility who was normally his caregivers to come and assess him and work with me to get him medicated. They refused. You know what they said? They said, "as long as he's off the street, we're not responsible." We didn't know what we were going to do with this patient. A jail is not a healthcare facility. And confinement can sometimes agravate the mental pt's condition. The local hospital refuses the mental pt also. He threatened me all the time, the only time he would do what I asked as far as take meds was, I would offer him pills in a med cup, or the same med in an injection with six officers prepared to take him down. He eventually would give in after much protest and name calling on his part. He had to be medicated, he was a danger to himself and others and hated women. This guy was awake for 30 days in his cell, doing jumping jacks, running up the walls and jumping off, one handed push ups. He could not sleep. i'd never seen anything like it. My point is this. The nation voted years ago for mental patients to have more freedom and not be institutionalized. So all these mental pts went to group homes in the community. They all get to the point where they are doing so well that they no longer qualify for the group home and are turned out on the street(discharged). Some have family, but sooner or later they will quit taking their meds and it starts all over again. They act up in the community and get arrested. Then the jail has to figure out what to do with this person.It took 3 monts to get him into the state hospital. Mental health centers are supposed to have an emergency response team available 24/7. Our local center has one, it's called ACT. I can promise you, they "act" on nothing.

Jo Dirt · Jun 19, 2006

... your IQ statement on the other hand I'm not so sure about... that seems like a pretty low blow, but that's just my opinion.

It would be a low blow if I really meant it, but I was just trying to add a little levity to the situation. :pumpiron: :chair:

nurseT · Jun 19, 2006

That is very sad. My brother is mentally ill. We had to call the cops on him numerous times because he was out of control (thankfully now he is doing much better). I know spouses of cops want their husbands/wives to come home, but families of mentally ill people want their loved ones to come home also. No matter how hard they are to deal with sometimes....we still love them. I don't know if the cop was in the wrong, but I think cops should be better trained to deal with mentally ill people.

Sorry about your brother. My mother was mentally ill, but she was never violent. I do have a question though. Why do so many family members call the police? Why not call the doctor or caseworker/counselor?

LydiaNN · Jun 19, 2006

A documented mentally ill person recently attempted to stab a person in my community, it was witnessed by a police officer, who, shot and killed her after she refused to drop the knife.

Again, the debate should be whether the killings are justified by a case by case review (and in my opinion, sometimes they are). The debate shouldn't be whether the OP should have used some other language to describe the fact that the cop killed the patient, because the cop did kill the patient. Just as the cop killed the patient in the scenario you described. Of course there's always going to be more to the story. It doesn't change that particular fact, though.