Police Killed Our Patient

LydiaNN · Jun 19, 2006

A friend of mine is a counselor and she tells me that when she lived in Milwaukee they had a mobile crisis team for mental health crises. She tells me that there is also one in the country in which we currently live but I never knew that. Clearly this is not publicized, I wonder what is the point of having it if they don't make it known that it is available. I also wonder if the cops are trained to know when to call?

We have Psychiatric Emergency Response Teams in this county. The way our's work is that the family is referred by their Regional Center service coordination, County Mental Case Worker or private provider. PERT goes out to the client's home and meets with the family to observe and document what might be needed in these kinds of emergencies. The problem is that so many of the contacts that police often have with people who are mentally ill are that those people tend to live outside of the system that affords protections like PERT (which has many flaws of its own, but that's a story for a different thread). As far as why the program isn't known to the general public, as with all public funded programs, there really aren't the resources to make it available to everyone. They count on the ''system'' to identify the most appropriate families. Not ideal, but it's what we've got.

Trauma Columnist · Jun 19, 2006

We have a psych response team that carries a police radio also and they are automatically dispatched when there is a psych issue and they go with the police. I am so sorry for this person that died as well as for the police officers involved.

Lurksalot, BSN, RN · Jun 19, 2006

My opinion stands. In addition, I feel if someone is posing a threat of harm to a police officer, I hope the officer will ALWAYS take any means necessary to nullify the threat to the officer's life. The FACT of the matter is the original poster of this thread made a statement saying a cop KILLED the psych patient and then further went onto say the same department has killed numerous people with tasers. I would like a news article or other reputable reference that states the name of the department accused and details of such a case.

...and finally, for those of you who insist that Tasering is a kinder, gentler mode of restraint, there's this very disturbing video:

Actually, I don't like tazering one bit.

Hey, your reaction is just what I expected-- someone to come up with a bunch of videos of rogue cops or cops who have done something wrong. In fact, according to all the great links you provided, there probably aren't ANY good cops out there in the world. So of COURSE every cop is guilty of every single thing they are accussed of, because YOU'VE found internet links of some who were.

Go right ahead, keep bashing other professions, and then drudge up internet links of the minority of bad cops to make the good ones look bad. After all, all cops are guilty everytime they enforce any law, that's why they join law enforcement.

Hey, I'm sure I can find lots of links to bash nurses, god knows how corrupt and awful nurses are! In fact, nurses KILL people every day and get away with it! I heard this one hospital had, like TEN people die in one day! And those of you who don't believe me, see my links!!!

Haha, I'm not inclined to bother.

LydiaNN · Jun 19, 2006

My opinion stands. In addition, I feel if someone is posing a threat of harm to a police officer, I hope the officer will ALWAYS take any means necessary to nullify the threat to the officer's life. The FACT of the matter is the original poster of this thread made a statement saying a cop KILLED the psych patient and then further went onto say the same department has killed numerous people with tasers. I would like a news article or other reputable reference that states the name of the department accused and details of such a case.
Actually, I don't like tazering one bit.
Hey, your reaction is just what I expected-- someone to come up with a bunch of videos of rogue cops or cops who have done something wrong. In fact, according to all the great links you provided, there probably aren't ANY good cops out there in the world. So of COURSE every cop is guilty of every single thing they are accussed of, because YOU'VE found internet links of some who were.
Go right ahead, keep bashing other professions, and then drudge up internet links of the minority of bad cops to make the good ones look bad. After all, all cops are guilty everytime they enforce any law, that's why they join law enforcement.
Hey, I'm sure I can find lots of links to bash nurses, god knows how corrupt and awful nurses are! In fact, nurses KILL people every day and get away with it! I heard this one hospital had, like TEN people die in one day! And those of you who don't believe me, see my links!!!
Haha, I'm not inclined to bother.

For someone who lurks a lot, I'm surprised you aren't aware of the many discussions we've had on these boards about bad nurses. Way, way more discussions than those about cops, or any other profession. As far as the OP's language that a cop killed a patient, that's the long and the short of it. The debate isn't whether the patient is dead at the cop's hand, it is about whether the killing was justified. Why object to the word ''killed'', when that's what it was?

Trauma Columnist · Jun 19, 2006

Lets debate the subject, not the individuals and please stay on topic. Thanks. This is a very emotionally-charged subject and I sometimes find it helpful to pause a minute or so before I push the "post" button in order to re-read my post. Thank you.

mariedoreen · Jun 19, 2006

Obviously psych nurses do not use tasers to subdue their patients having a mental break. So what tools do you use?

SharonH, RN · Jun 19, 2006

My opinion stands. In addition, I feel if someone is posing a threat of harm to a police officer, I hope the officer will ALWAYS take any means necessary to nullify the threat to the officer's life. The FACT of the matter is the original poster of this thread made a statement saying a cop KILLED the psych patient and then further went onto say the same department has killed numerous people with tasers. I would like a news article or other reputable reference that states the name of the department accused and details of such a case.

Ya know, any time an individual committs an act which ends with another person DEAD, then that act deserves a lot of scrutiny whether they be police officer or nurse. Just as it is wrong to assume that any action a cop takes is wrong, it wrong to automatically excuse any action as justified on the part of the policeman.

There is a pattern being described by the OP and it should be examined and discussed.

I know a lot of cops, hey I work with them every day and most of them are ordinary family men and women, trying to earn a living and do the right thing. But some of them are bona fide bad people who should not have the power vested to them by their badges, and some of them are just stupid. They are subject to the same weaknesses and mistakes as anyone else and I refuse to give them a pass just because they are cops.

Cops kill and it is not always to protect themselves just as nurses kill and it is not always an oops. Sometimes negligence can be malicious and how are we going to stop it if we don't at least look at a situation? If numerous people are dying as a result of taser use, then by all means let's study that. Sorry if you think that amounts to bashing cops.

twoanddone · Jun 19, 2006

You said it yourself, you don't know. You wern't there, and don't know what happened. Who knows what the suspect did in the police station? The only fact known is that a police officer felt it necessary to use force to subdue a suspect. Be glad that in your town, police are allowed to use tasers; in my state is is illegal, they can not carry tasers or nightsticks. If more force is needed to protect an officer, they must use deadly force.
Unfortunately when a suspect is fighting with police or doing something liable to harm himself or others, they do not have the luxury of sitting back and wondering if he's a psych patient or if there is some explanation for the behavior. It does not matter WHY the suspect is behaving the way he is, they can only deal with putting a stop to the behavior. It does not matter in hindsight that somebody says "oh, he was never violent with me, or he would never hurt anyone, I've never known him to be assualtive, or he was psychotic not criminal...".
You know, I am really disturbed by the posts degrading other professionals on here. This thread is just one example. After reading the responses here, it is obvious that most of the nurses have absolutely NO knowledge of police work. Why are some nurses so quick to jump all over another profession without giving them some benefit of the doubt? Doctors, paramedics, PAs, CNAs, police officers, EMTs, they get bashed on this board. Personally, until I have FACTS that say otherwise, I will always give fellow public-service professions the benefit of the doubt, just as I hope I would get.
I am tired of the general public judging nurses, doctors, police officers, ect., based on what the public thinks should happen after the fact. All of these professions have to act in a split second with actions that can save a life or take a life. I doubt any nurse goes to work wanting a patient to die under her care, but they do. I doubt any cop goes to work wanting to have to tazer/shoot a criminal and see them die as a result, but it happens.
So why not title this "Psych patient dies after being tasered by police."
No, it's much more inflammatory to say "patient is killed by police."
I know it will never change, because it's always much better to blame someone, especially a cop, doctor, or nurse for anyone's death. And I'm sure next time there's a headline that says something like "Nurse kills man with morphine" nurses everywhere will be up in arms, shouting the nurse was only doing her job. And some joe-public will say "nurses should be TRAINED to give morphine correctly!" and "Why was that nurses allowed to give morphine, she should have given tylenol?" "why did the nurse come in there with her syringe out, she should have tried a pill first!!??"
And nurses will sigh, because joe-public does not know what happened in the situation, and as a nurse we will give the benefit of the doubt that our fellow nurse did what she was TRAINED to do in a specific situation which she felt was the best course of action.
I think our fellow public service professions deserve more respect. And I don't blame any cop for drawing his gun or using a taser when ever he feels threatened. My husband wears a bullet proof vest to work for a reason, and that's so even if some jacked-up criminal threatens his life, he can still come home to my daughter and me.
I am interested in a link to a news story about this incident, and I would also like to know which police department has has 4 tazer deaths in one year. That is certainly newsworth information, and worth following up on.
And rest assurred, there will be a lawsuit, someone will get a hefty settlement, and taxes will go up. If you all knew how much police departments actually got sued and settled, and how much money is paid out for total nonsense and then added onto taxpayers bills, you'd be suprised. And you never hear about any of it on the news.

THANK YOU! ! My hubby goes to work every night as a police officer with his bullet proof vest. He has a taser and has been tased himself (he said it hurt )but hasn't used it yet.

Our city also likes settlements even if the case is ridiculous because trials cost even more.

Lurksalot, BSN, RN · Jun 19, 2006

For someone who lurks a lot, I'm surprised you aren't aware of the many discussions we've had on these boards about bad nurses. Way, way more discussions than those about cops, or any other profession. As far as the OP's language that a cop killed a patient, that's the long and the short of it. The debate isn't whether the patient is dead at the cop's hand, it is about whether the killing was justified. Why object to the word ''killed'', when that's what it was?

We don't know WHAT happened. Did the person die at the scene as a direct result of the tazer? Is it a department filled with rogue tazer weidling police officers looking to kill people? What did the suspect do, if anything, to need to be tazered by the police? Were there medical problems the suspect had that contributed or caused his death after the tazering, or what? I'm sure there is much more to what actually happened, rather than a cop KILLED a suspect.

I just object to throwing out a bash on another profession without base. Again, the original poster states that she does not know what happened, yet it is being throw out there that the cop is a killer?? I think the wording is irresponsible, and my problem is that this is the way many nurses speak about other professions without any actual fact to the information. And then, based on one accusation from a nurse that wasn't even THERE and doesn't know what happened, some of the nurses here jump on the bandwagon and run on about stuff they have no clue about! Cops need more training, they need to learn how to deal with mentally ill, tasers should be banned, yadayada. Cripes, nurses certainly complain enough about disrespect, yet they are the first to throw stones.

Meerkat · Jun 19, 2006

OK, you have a rather long post here, so I can't address all of it. A few points, which I boldfaced in order to address them more effectively:
1. I don't care what your profession is, but the fact is that these taser deaths are pointing to a technique or a device that might need change. Perhaps the device is not as safe as people think, or perhaps there should be a limit on how many times an individual can be tasered before other action can be used?
2. Is it inflammatory reporting to call a psych patient a psych patient? I disagree. I'd call it informative reporting, and all the more newsworthy because the "criminal" was unarmed. By the way, ever notice how anyone adjudged worthy of arrest by the police suddenly is a "criminal"? No trial, no jury, no nothing, just an arrest? It's just as "inflammatory" IMHO.
3. The fact is, FOUR UNARMED "jacked-up criminals" were tasered TO DEATH. Apparently the crime of being a victim of a mental illness that causes a bizarre behavior deserves the DEATH SENTENCE? I saw one video that showed one "criminal" tasered MULTIPLE TIMES.
I have a lot of sympathy for cops and the fact that they lay their lives on the line every day for us. BUT.
These deaths show that SOMETHING IS WRONG somewhere. Something needs to be fixed. These deaths cannot be ignored. These were people who were US citizens and had rights. They were supposed to be protected too, just like mentally healthy people.
4. I don't know what YOU think is a "hefty settlement" but down here, a fellow cop was tasered by another officer. Suppose he died? What exactly would constitute a "hefty settlement"? What price someone's life? Why is an officer's life more valuable than some poor soul who's having hallucinations? Does that sick person's family miss them any less? Who judges how much of a contribution to society or to that family the sick person makes? Who determines their worth? What, pray tell, is the replacement value on a person who's been fine for years, then suddenly their dose is insufficient, and they have a psychotic episode?
What kind of people are we, that we can cavalierly dismiss this tragic loss of life and not investigate the incident or do some sort of process review to find the failure in the system?
5. Finally, here are some of those news articles about the deaths associated with Tasers. Included are some other articles illustrating how officers Tasered a woman in a wheelchair, a 6-year-old child, a person who is already handcuffed. Using self-defense as a justification in some of these cases does seem a bit over the top to me.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/10/12/earlyshow/main648859.shtml
http://www.palmbeachpost.com/localnews/content/local_news/epaper/2005/05/30/m1a_taser_0530.html
http://www.floridatoday.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050618/NEWS01/506180322/1006
http://www.sptimes.com/2005/02/24/State/Jacksonville_police_s.shtml
...and finally, for those of you who insist that Tasering is a kinder, gentler mode of restraint, there's this very disturbing video:
http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/content/news/video/taser_video3a.html

Well done! Those were exactly the points I was going to address! Excellent!

Lurksalot is biased, sure she/he wants to see his/her spouse at the end of the day. I imagine, though, that so did the patient's family want to see him, too.

And jut to humor him/her, here's an article from yesterday:

http://www.pensacolanewsjournal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060618/NEWS01/606180328/1006

By the way, this article only mentions 3 deaths. The fourth to which I referred was at a juvenile detention center in another county.

Lurksalot, BSN, RN · Jun 19, 2006

Cops kill and it is not always to protect themselves just as nurses kill and it is not always an oops. Sometimes negligence can be malicious and how are we going to stop it if we don't at least look at a situation? If numerous people are dying as a result of taser use, then by all means let's study that. Sorry if you think that amounts to bashing nurses.

Sure it should be looked at, that why I wanted to see a SOURCE of actual information about what actually happened, rather than a RUMOR from someone who wasn't even there! Where is an article on this police department, I really want to know where 4 deaths from tazers have happened in such a short span, I am suprised it has not made the nightly news.

Meerkat · Jun 19, 2006

We don't know WHAT happened. Did the person die at the scene as a direct result of the tazer? Is it a department filled with rogue tazer weidling police officers looking to kill people? What did the suspect do, if anything, to need to be tazered by the police? Were there medical problems the suspect had that contributed or caused his death after the tazering, or what? I'm sure there is much more to what actually happened, rather than a cop KILLED a suspect.
I just object to throwing out a bash on another profession without base. Again, the original poster states that she does not know what happened, yet it is being throw out there that the cop is a killer?? I think the wording is irresponsible, and my problem is that this is the way many nurses speak about other professions without any actual fact to the information. And then, based on one accusation from a nurse that wasn't even THERE and doesn't know what happened, some of the nurses here jump on the bandwagon and run on about stuff they have no clue about! Cops need more training, they need to learn how to deal with mentally ill, tasers should be banned, yadayada. Cripes, nurses certainly complain enough about disrespect, yet they are the first to throw stones.

This isn't a cop bashing thread. And what makes you think you have more of a clue than I do? How do you know I wasn't at the ER when the man was brought in, or that I haven't read the record? You are so determined to prove a point that you are blindly making assumptions.