Very disturbing...one of our frequent psych patients (d/c'd) was picked up by the police. For what, I don't know. But I've never known the guy to assaultive. Agitated at times, yes. Assaultive, no.
Police apparently had him and he got agitated. He was Taser'd a few times and died when he got to our hospital.
This is the fourth time *this year* that police in our area have ended up killing a psych patient. Mostly from Tasering, once from being 'restrained' according to the news.
I just think police need some training on dealing with mentally ill people. This is a crying shame. Mentally ill and agitated is not the same as criminal!
Speaking as a person who remembers huge state-operated campuses of 'mental hospitals' that were the sometimes life-long home of most of societies psych pts, I have to point out that 'freeing' psych pts into the general society was a political/ethical/financial decision.
There were many abuses of that system. Unfortunate persons were 'committed' to the state hospitals as a result of bad family dynamics or similar problems that would never result in medical/psych diagnoses today. (I specifically recall one newspaper story of an elderly woman who's records revealed that she had been committed by her parents as a result of being pregnant & unmarried and who lived in the hospital for 40-odd years. One is left wondering how many gay persons were judged to be 'crazy'.)
Modern behavior drugs were supposed to make psych pts' behavior compatible with general society. A system of clinics and subsidies/supports for group homes etc was going to make this transition successful.
Probably it was the best decision. But the reality for lots of our psych pts is that follow-up doesn't meet their needs and many of their lives have long periods of homelessness and that the police end up dealing with them.
Obviously, there are difficult issues involving civil liberties and social responsibility here. But the ultimate 'freedom' in the US is that we all have the 'right' to sleep under bridges and eat out of dumpsters, to reject all social supports and treat society as if it were some sort of 'wilderness'.
But the degree of 'choosing' for lots of psych pts is problematical. Should they be given the same 'choice' to descend to the bottom and behave disruptively as I have?
I don't know the answers. But the results wehave today are the result of essentially political decisions. And if American society should change it's mind--we could keep psych pts safer but less free.
Also maybe the fact that our revolving door psych system played a part. It still amazes me that we can comit a person to a 72 hour hold/evaluation on friday night and they are back on saturday night because the psych doctor let him go that morning.
Rj
Very disturbing...one of our frequent psych patients (d/c'd) was picked up by the police. For what, I don't know. But I've never known the guy to assaultive. Agitated at times, yes. Assaultive, no.
Police apparently had him and he got agitated. He was Taser'd a few times and died when he got to our hospital.
This is the fourth time *this year* that police in our area have ended up killing a psych patient. Mostly from Tasering, once from being 'restrained' according to the news.
I just think police need some training on dealing with mentally ill people. This is a crying shame. Mentally ill and agitated is not the same as criminal!
Specializes in Happily semi-retired; excited for the whole whammy.
This is a problem in the autism community as well. Although people with autism are less likely to be violent and to my knowledge, none have been killed by cops, they are frequently arrested and experience escalation because of the way they're treated. There are a number of programs run by the Autism Society, Dennis DeBauddt and others to train police about autism. The problem is that police agencies aren't mandated to use them. In this area, the sheriffs have welcomed the Autism Society training and most deputies have received it. OTOH, in a nearby city, much larger than my area, the ASA was told ''no thanks, our officers are already trained in that'' And yet, one afternoon, my friend's 38 year old son with low functioning autism was chased inside the house from his own front yard, where he was indulging in his daily decompressing activity of running around on his tiptoes while his mom watched from the front room, by a cop with his gun drawn, simply on the basis that he was ''acting suspicious''. Unusual doesn't always have to mean suspicious. Is there really a problem with criminals running around on their tiptoes that would justify this reaction?
That's really sad. I tink police need to be trained to not use tazers unless they would be willing to shoot the person as well. They can be just as dangerous as a gun.
Sounds like the police department will end up with a lawsuit one of these days.
I don't blame the cops. I DO blame their lack of training in dealing with the mentally ill. That can and should be changed. We have had several paranoid schitzophrenics killed in my city because the police acted on their deficient training and antagonized the person.
So no, I don't blame the individual cops. I DO BLAME the police agencies for not training the officers better. I think we have all seen blatant situations on the news where someone was clearly severely mentally ill, and the cops treated the person just like someone who was in their right mind and it made things worst.
They need better training. I bet they want it too.
I agree with this. It's unfortunate because being mentally ill makes many people targets for the police and the general public is somewhat uncomfortable with this but are all too willing to excuse these instances of the mentally ill being killed or hurt by the cops as the cops needing to defend themselves. I don't always buy that. There was a gentlemen in this area who began to act bizarrely due to physical health problems and instead of taking the man to the hospital they held him down and tasered him to death. There were 5 of them to this one poor man who did not have a weapon by the way. The whole thing was caught on tape and it was clear that their lives were not in danger in any way.
It's unfortunate but mental illness is frequently criminalized in this country and until there is an outcry by society there will be no change.
Very disturbing...one of our frequent psych patients (d/c'd) was picked up by the police. For what, I don't know.
You said it yourself, you don't know. You wern't there, and don't know what happened. Who knows what the suspect did in the police station? The only fact known is that a police officer felt it necessary to use force to subdue a suspect. Be glad that in your town, police are allowed to use tasers; in my state is is illegal, they can not carry tasers or nightsticks. If more force is needed to protect an officer, they must use deadly force.
Unfortunately when a suspect is fighting with police or doing something liable to harm himself or others, they do not have the luxury of sitting back and wondering if he's a psych patient or if there is some explanation for the behavior. It does not matter WHY the suspect is behaving the way he is, they can only deal with putting a stop to the behavior. It does not matter in hindsight that somebody says "oh, he was never violent with me, or he would never hurt anyone, I've never known him to be assualtive, or he was psychotic not criminal...".
You know, I am really disturbed by the posts degrading other professionals on here. This thread is just one example. After reading the responses here, it is obvious that most of the nurses have absolutely NO knowledge of police work. Why are some nurses so quick to jump all over another profession without giving them some benefit of the doubt? Doctors, paramedics, PAs, CNAs, police officers, EMTs, they get bashed on this board. Personally, until I have FACTS that say otherwise, I will always give fellow public-service professions the benefit of the doubt, just as I hope I would get.
I am tired of the general public judging nurses, doctors, police officers, ect., based on what the public thinks should happen after the fact. All of these professions have to act in a split second with actions that can save a life or take a life. I doubt any nurse goes to work wanting a patient to die under her care, but they do. I doubt any cop goes to work wanting to have to tazer/shoot a criminal and see them die as a result, but it happens.
So why not title this "Psych patient dies after being tasered by police."
No, it's much more inflammatory to say "patient is killed by police."
I know it will never change, because it's always much better to blame someone, especially a cop, doctor, or nurse for anyone's death. And I'm sure next time there's a headline that says something like "Nurse kills man with morphine" nurses everywhere will be up in arms, shouting the nurse was only doing her job. And some joe-public will say "nurses should be TRAINED to give morphine correctly!" and "Why was that nurses allowed to give morphine, she should have given tylenol?" "why did the nurse come in there with her syringe out, she should have tried a pill first!!??"
And nurses will sigh, because joe-public does not know what happened in the situation, and as a nurse we will give the benefit of the doubt that our fellow nurse did what she was TRAINED to do in a specific situation which she felt was the best course of action.
I think our fellow public service professions deserve more respect. And I don't blame any cop for drawing his gun or using a taser when ever he feels threatened. My husband wears a bullet proof vest to work for a reason, and that's so even if some jacked-up criminal threatens his life, he can still come home to my daughter and me.
I am interested in a link to a news story about this incident, and I would also like to know which police department has has 4 tazer deaths in one year. That is certainly newsworth information, and worth following up on.
And rest assurred, there will be a lawsuit, someone will get a hefty settlement, and taxes will go up. If you all knew how much police departments actually got sued and settled, and how much money is paid out for total nonsense and then added onto taxpayers bills, you'd be suprised. And you never hear about any of it on the news.
You said it yourself, you don't know. You wern't there, and don't know what happened. Who knows what the suspect did in the police station? The only fact known is that a police officer felt it necessary to use force to subdue a suspect. Be glad that in your town, police are allowed to use tasers; in my state is is illegal, they can not carry tasers or nightsticks. If more force is needed to protect an officer, they must use deadly force.
Unfortunately when a suspect is fighting with police or doing something liable to harm himself or others, they do not have the luxury of sitting back and wondering if he's a psych patient or if there is some explanation for the behavior. It does not matter WHY the suspect is behaving the way he is, they can only deal with putting a stop to the behavior. It does not matter in hindsight that somebody says "oh, he was never violent with me, or he would never hurt anyone, I've never known him to be assualtive, or he was psychotic not criminal...".
You know, I am really disturbed by the posts degrading other professionals on here. This thread is just one example. After reading the responses here, it is obvious that most of the nurses have absolutely NO knowledge of police work. Why are some nurses so quick to jump all over another profession without giving them some benefit of the doubt? Doctors, paramedics, PAs, CNAs, police officers, EMTs, they get bashed on this board. Personally, until I have FACTS that say otherwise, I will always give fellow public-service professions the benefit of the doubt, just as I hope I would get.
I am tired of the general public judging nurses, doctors, police officers, ect., based on what the public thinks should happen after the fact. All of these professions have to act in a split second with actions that can save a life or take a life. I doubt any nurse goes to work wanting a patient to die under her care, but they do. I doubt any cop goes to work wanting to have to tazer/shoot a criminal and see them die as a result, but it happens.
So why not title this "Psych patient dies after being tasered by police."
No, it's much more inflammatory to say "patient is killed by police."
I know it will never change, because it's always much better to blame someone, especially a cop, doctor, or nurse for anyone's death. And I'm sure next time there's a headline that says something like "Nurse kills man with morphine" nurses everywhere will be up in arms, shouting the nurse was only doing her job. And some joe-public will say "nurses should be TRAINED to give morphine correctly!" and "Why was that nurses allowed to give morphine, she should have given tylenol?" "why did the nurse come in there with her syringe out, she should have tried a pill first!!??"
And nurses will sigh, because joe-public does not know what happened in the situation, and as a nurse we will give the benefit of the doubt that our fellow nurse did what she was TRAINED to do in a specific situation which she felt was the best course of action.
I think our fellow public service professions deserve more respect. And I don't blame any cop for drawing his gun or using a taser when ever he feels threatened. My husband wears a bullet proof vest to work for a reason, and that's so even if some jacked-up criminal threatens his life, he can still come home to my daughter and me.
I am interested in a link to a news story about this incident, and I would also like to know which police department has has 4 tazer deaths in one year. That is certainly newsworth information, and worth following up on.
And rest assurred, there will be a lawsuit, someone will get a hefty settlement, and taxes will go up. If you all knew how much police departments actually got sued and settled, and how much money is paid out for total nonsense and then added onto taxpayers bills, you'd be suprised. And you never hear about any of it on the news.
:yeahthat:
:thankya: Yes!! Ditto!! Great post! So true!
Also.....may be a "psych" pt, but are we sure there wasn't some drug use there? To be tasered 4 times, hmmm.....
"psych SWAT team", I like that idea. Maybe they could use tasers with prefilled syringes of haloperidol. This of course could only be utilized by officers who have completed some sort of sensitivity awareness training. On second thought, scrap that idea. Electricity is much faster.
Almost makes you wish that every police department had a "psych SWAT team" consisting of a shrink and a couple of nurses for these crazy situations. But then, most of them evolve very rapidly and there is always that time factor.
And I don't know about you, but in our part of the world, an "emergency" psych eval means that the doc will be in to see the patient within the next 24 hours.
And another thing: wouldn't you think that the psych community itself would maybe get on the stick and notice this stuff and take some action too? As in having a list of known psych patients and their meds and dx's listed so that somewhere, someone who "knows" them can help them?
A friend of mine is a counselor and she tells me that when she lived in Milwaukee they had a mobile crisis team for mental health crises. She tells me that there is also one in the county in which we currently live but I never knew that. Clearly this is not publicized, I wonder what is the point of having it if they don't make it known that it is available. I also wonder if the cops are trained to know when to call?
I am tired of the general public judging nurses, doctors, police officers, ect., based on what the public thinks should happen after the fact. All of these professions have to act in a split second with actions that can save a life or take a life. I doubt any nurse goes to work wanting a patient to die under her care, but they do. I doubt any cop goes to work wanting to have to tazer/shoot a criminal and see them die as a result, but it happens.
That would be exactly how I feel on the matter. I don't want a police officer coming in after the fact telling me how I should have done my job, I think I owe them the same respect.
comes home to me and the little O'Myacins at the end of his shift. His department doesn't use tasers, but he's pepper sprayed quite a few people in his tenure as an officer.
I'm sorry that that patient died and that other officers have felt it necessary to use what some people would consider excessive force. I'm not defending the actions of that particular officer since I wasn't there either, but I bet his wife (or husband, or sig. other) was awfully glad to see him/her at the end of shift.
You said it yourself, you don't know. You wern't there, and don't know what happened. Who knows what the suspect did in the police station? The only fact known is that a police officer felt it necessary to use force to subdue a suspect. Be glad that in your town, police are allowed to use tasers; in my state is is illegal, they can not carry tasers or nightsticks. If more force is needed to protect an officer, they must use deadly force.
Unfortunately when a suspect is fighting with police or doing something liable to harm himself or others, they do not have the luxury of sitting back and wondering if he's a psych patient or if there is some explanation for the behavior. It does not matter WHY the suspect is behaving the way he is, they can only deal with putting a stop to the behavior. It does not matter in hindsight that somebody says "oh, he was never violent with me, or he would never hurt anyone, I've never known him to be assualtive, or he was psychotic not criminal...".
You know, I am really disturbed by the posts degrading other professionals on here. This thread is just one example. After reading the responses here, it is obvious that most of the nurses have absolutely NO knowledge of police work. Why are some nurses so quick to jump all over another profession without giving them some benefit of the doubt? Doctors, paramedics, PAs, CNAs, police officers, EMTs, they get bashed on this board. Personally, until I have FACTS that say otherwise, I will always give fellow public-service professions the benefit of the doubt, just as I hope I would get.
I am tired of the general public judging nurses, doctors, police officers, ect., based on what the public thinks should happen after the fact. All of these professions have to act in a split second with actions that can save a life or take a life. I doubt any nurse goes to work wanting a patient to die under her care, but they do. I doubt any cop goes to work wanting to have to tazer/shoot a criminal and see them die as a result, but it happens.
So why not title this "Psych patient dies after being tasered by police."
No, it's much more inflammatory to say "patient is killed by police."
I know it will never change, because it's always much better to blame someone, especially a cop, doctor, or nurse for anyone's death. And I'm sure next time there's a headline that says something like "Nurse kills man with morphine" nurses everywhere will be up in arms, shouting the nurse was only doing her job. And some joe-public will say "nurses should be TRAINED to give morphine correctly!" and "Why was that nurses allowed to give morphine, she should have given tylenol?" "why did the nurse come in there with her syringe out, she should have tried a pill first!!??"
And nurses will sigh, because joe-public does not know what happened in the situation, and as a nurse we will give the benefit of the doubt that our fellow nurse did what she was TRAINED to do in a specific situation which she felt was the best course of action.
I think our fellow public service professions deserve more respect. And I don't blame any cop for drawing his gun or using a taser when ever he feels threatened. My husband wears a bullet proof vest to work for a reason, and that's so even if some jacked-up criminal threatens his life, he can still come home to my daughter and me.
I am interested in a link to a news story about this incident, and I would also like to know which police department has has 4 tazer deaths in one year. That is certainly newsworth information, and worth following up on.
And rest assurred, there will be a lawsuit, someone will get a hefty settlement, and taxes will go up. If you all knew how much police departments actually got sued and settled, and how much money is paid out for total nonsense and then added onto taxpayers bills, you'd be suprised. And you never hear about any of it on the news.
OK, you have a rather long post here, so I can't address all of it. A few points, which I boldfaced in order to address them more effectively:
1. I don't care what your profession is, but the fact is that these taser deaths are pointing to a technique or a device that might need change. Perhaps the device is not as safe as people think, or perhaps there should be a limit on how many times an individual can be tasered before other action can be used?
2. Is it inflammatory reporting to call a psych patient a psych patient? I disagree. I'd call it informative reporting, and all the more newsworthy because the "criminal" was unarmed. By the way, ever notice how anyone adjudged worthy of arrest by the police suddenly is a "criminal"? No trial, no jury, no nothing, just an arrest? It's just as "inflammatory" IMHO.
3. The fact is, FOUR UNARMED "jacked-up criminals" were tasered TO DEATH. Apparently the crime of being a victim of a mental illness that causes a bizarre behavior deserves the DEATH SENTENCE? I saw one video that showed one "criminal" tasered MULTIPLE TIMES.
I have a lot of sympathy for cops and the fact that they lay their lives on the line every day for us. BUT.
These deaths show that SOMETHING IS WRONG somewhere. Something needs to be fixed. These deaths cannot be ignored. These were people who were US citizens and had rights. They were supposed to be protected too, just like mentally healthy people.
4. I don't know what YOU think is a "hefty settlement" but down here, a fellow cop was tasered by another officer. Suppose he died? What exactly would constitute a "hefty settlement"? What price someone's life? Why is an officer's life more valuable than some poor soul who's having hallucinations? Does that sick person's family miss them any less? Who judges how much of a contribution to society or to that family the sick person makes? Who determines their worth? What, pray tell, is the replacement value on a person who's been fine for years, then suddenly their dose is insufficient, and they have a psychotic episode?
What kind of people are we, that we can cavalierly dismiss this tragic loss of life and not investigate the incident or do some sort of process review to find the failure in the system?
5. Finally, here are some of those news articles about the deaths associated with Tasers. Included are some other articles illustrating how officers Tasered a woman in a wheelchair, a 6-year-old child, a person who is already handcuffed. Using self-defense as a justification in some of these cases does seem a bit over the top to me.
I tink police need to be trained to not use tazers unless they would be willing to shoot the person as well. They can be just as dangerous as a gun. 
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papawjohn
435 Posts
Hey Y'all
Speaking as a person who remembers huge state-operated campuses of 'mental hospitals' that were the sometimes life-long home of most of societies psych pts, I have to point out that 'freeing' psych pts into the general society was a political/ethical/financial decision.
There were many abuses of that system. Unfortunate persons were 'committed' to the state hospitals as a result of bad family dynamics or similar problems that would never result in medical/psych diagnoses today. (I specifically recall one newspaper story of an elderly woman who's records revealed that she had been committed by her parents as a result of being pregnant & unmarried and who lived in the hospital for 40-odd years. One is left wondering how many gay persons were judged to be 'crazy'.)
Modern behavior drugs were supposed to make psych pts' behavior compatible with general society. A system of clinics and subsidies/supports for group homes etc was going to make this transition successful.
Probably it was the best decision. But the reality for lots of our psych pts is that follow-up doesn't meet their needs and many of their lives have long periods of homelessness and that the police end up dealing with them.
Obviously, there are difficult issues involving civil liberties and social responsibility here. But the ultimate 'freedom' in the US is that we all have the 'right' to sleep under bridges and eat out of dumpsters, to reject all social supports and treat society as if it were some sort of 'wilderness'.
But the degree of 'choosing' for lots of psych pts is problematical. Should they be given the same 'choice' to descend to the bottom and behave disruptively as I have?
I don't know the answers. But the results wehave today are the result of essentially political decisions. And if American society should change it's mind--we could keep psych pts safer but less free.
Scratching my troubled, bald head
Papaw John