Very disturbing...one of our frequent psych patients (d/c'd) was picked up by the police. For what, I don't know. But I've never known the guy to assaultive. Agitated at times, yes. Assaultive, no.
Police apparently had him and he got agitated. He was Taser'd a few times and died when he got to our hospital.
This is the fourth time *this year* that police in our area have ended up killing a psych patient. Mostly from Tasering, once from being 'restrained' according to the news.
I just think police need some training on dealing with mentally ill people. This is a crying shame. Mentally ill and agitated is not the same as criminal!
As with any profession there is good and bad. I have worked as a nurse for the prison system for 6 years. Yes there are those people in a uniform that play god. Then there are the ones who truely can tone down a confrontational situation. I think the answer to these problems is education. There is not enough emphasis on dealing with psychotic people in the training academies. Especially in the smaller communities where you have officers making 10 bucks an hour to put there life on the line.
If, due to dementia, an individual is unable to tell the difference between raping a CNA (or a small child, or an elderly female, for that matter) and making love to his wife, THAT PERSON NEEDS TO BE IN A SECURE ENVIRONMENT.
NO IFS, ANDS OR BUTS!!!!!
And, no that is not too "harsh".
The have a right to humane treatment and we the public, have a right to safety. When they interfere with our safety, we have the right to confine them as necessary to ensure safety of society at large...and the dementia does not alter that. And being permitted to attack others (even mistakenly) is not acceptable, nor humane.
Because one day, they will mistakenly attack the wrong person, and they will stabbed/shot/murdered due to their behavior. They attack someone who owns a gun or is otherwise armed, and the outcome will be far from humane for any involved.
And before you ask, if one of my elderly relatives, due to dementia, attempted to rape me or my grand/child....I don't care how loveable they once were, they are now a dangerous, if demented, predator, and I would defend myself and those being attacked.
I don't know if anyone noticed, but I stated that this person was in an innappropriate facility for his behaviors. From what has been said this was a temporary hold until a bed opened up in a psych or behavoral unit.
If there arent the proper facilities for those who have dementia and are agressive where are we suppose to put them?
If, due to dementia, an individual is unable to tell the difference between raping a CNA (or a small child, or an elderly female, for that matter) and making love to his wife, THAT PERSON NEEDS TO BE IN A SECURE ENVIRONMENT.
NO IFS, ANDS OR BUTS!!!!!
And, no that is not too "harsh".
The have a right to humane treatment and we the public, have a right to safety. When they interfere with our safety, we have the right to confine them as necessary to ensure safety of society at large...and the dementia does not alter that. And being permitted to attack others (even mistakenly) is not acceptable, nor humane.
Because one day, they will mistakenly attack the wrong person, and they will stabbed/shot/murdered due to their behavior. They attack someone who owns a gun or is otherwise armed, and the outcome will be far from humane for any involved.
And before you ask, if one of my elderly relatives, due to dementia, attempted to rape me or my grand/child....I don't care how loveable they once were, they are now a dangerous, if demented, predator, and I would defend myself and those being attacked.
I don't know if anyone noticed, but I stated that this person was in an innappropriate facility for his behaviors. From what has been said this was a temporary hold until a bed opened up in a psych or behavoral unit.
If there arent the proper facilities for those who have dementia and are agressive where are we suppose to put them?
If you notice from Triage's post, the "appropriate" facility that was supposed to take this patient refused after the attempted rape. Presumably, that facility didn't feel they could handle him or take the risk. This is why I believe that dangerous patients have to go to criminal psych facilities.
one thing i believe that is overlooked here is that a lot of cops have to deal with drug overdose and drug induced behaviors. these people are extremely hard to bring down. but can be and not hurt. i agree they need more training in recognizing and dealing with both behaviors. i am glad they have their training in cpr. my son is a good cop and would never hurt anyone intentionally. he loves God and tries to give everyone a chance to know him.
especially when it comes to the "superhuman" strength associated with PCP or crystal meth.
I'm sure your son, like my husband, is a good cop and cares about what he does for a living. Part of that is coming home to his family at the end of the night so he can go out and do it again the next.
Blee
one thing i believe that is overlooked here is that a lot of cops have to deal with drug overdose and drug induced behaviors. these people are extremely hard to bring down. but can be and not hurt. i agree they need more training in recognizing and dealing with both behaviors. i am glad they have their training in cpr. my son is a good cop and would never hurt anyone intentionally. he loves God and tries to give everyone a chance to know him.
When it comes to psych pts of any kind, I have learned compassion and a lot of respect for their situation! Our hospital as of late has become a holding ground for psych pts that can not find appropriate care or housing..and can wait weeks or even more than a month at our facility that doesn't even have proper rooms for them till they find placement! We nurses try to take it with a grain of salt...we care, we do our best, we fight for a pts rights...but you loose that momentarily if you are a harm to self or others (within reason!). I find that to be the same for police with basic human rights as well leading the way for judgement!
One day...I heard a yell from my pts room. I ran to see what was up, and a large man with dementia had the CNA pinned on the floor (and he was BIG as in tall and muscle!). She was totally helpless and struggling to free herself and then he started to pull down her pants!
I freaked! I got a hold of his head using my hands on his jaw and back of the head and moved his head down to the floor...where the head goes the body follows, and instructed the CNA to use her right leg against his and flip him on the count of three with all her might. I was lucky..she knew what to do, she positioned her foot to the distal apect of hers and used her thigh and knee to flip him over.
I got her out...and still no responce from security which I screamed for (well then again time does pass slower! LOL). I got him on the floor on his back and I was fully grounded besides him. I grabbed his arm, pulled it above his head, and held the thumb tightly in a position if he moved he would have a bit of pain (I learned this from Police in defence classes for the healthcare provider). He stayed immoble till I lost my concentration on it when explining what happened to the security!
Then, in front of them...he used his other hand between my legs to do something very innaproprite with a finger! I jumped basically (use your imagination), and he had 3 guys on him in an instant!
The investigation said that I should have tried to talk the pt out of the assult against the CNA....WHAT? He had her pinned and was removing her pants!!!!!!! But otherwise I was found to have used the least amount of force and injury to subdue the pt.
Sadly...he was about to move to a facility and this incident had him staying longer because the facilty chosen wouldn't take him after that. But...that wasn't my fault!!!!! Heck, what if a poor CNA or RN or PT was under him in that facility..would they have known what to do????
I was under investigation for a while so they could look over the case. I was found in the right!
No it wasn't deadly force..but ask me if I had the use of a tazzer if I would have used it...or if I had a needle of ativan or inapsine??? Well..the meds yes right away to control the situation, tazzer if I had been trained! But the fact remained...he was a danger to another and assulting them in my sites...pt or not, I must stop that if I can't get security there in a timely mannor!
I am sure some folks would say I was too mean...yeah, he wasn't injured in any way! But still...the investigation took forever to prove I was okay!
I don't see this any different from Police actions in the most part...so I will trust the investigation will do what it needs to and help this situation to the best possible outcome.
Triage - I applaud your quick thinking. I would invite anyone who thinks differently - to trade places with that CNA.
I realize that dementia is a condition that these people cannot help, but that doesn't make me willing to be a victim. I remember years ago seeing an old fella DESTROY his hospital room by using his cane as a club. It took several guys to subdue him, yet very often people like this are put under the care of 1 nurse or CNA.
I have worked forensic nursing in the past year. Proven fact: tasers do not kill people. not one case has been proven. the damage to a person on the receiving end comes from the fall sustained after the taser is applied. Officers in my area are trained to control the persons fall. there are always situations that this may have not occured. One should learn of non lethal interventions before making such bold statements.
As a RN I'm filled with empathy, but as a police officer's wife I undrstand the split second descisions that the officers have to make every day. As someone already said, they don't have a psych eval team available to decide if the person who is threatening their life is mentally unstable or if they are really going to try and harm the officer. About the three deaths after being tased I do believe that they need to be gone over with a fine tooth comb, there has to be something else to it. The tazor was developed to allow officers to have a non-leathal means of controlling an individual. From all the research that I've found tazors in and of themself shouldn't have lethal capabilities. There has to be something else going on. I don't Know the individuals you work with, but I do know that several of our regular psych patients use illegal substances like Cocaine, and we all know that use of these drugs can put you at risk of having a heart attack without being tazed. To hear of 3 deaths in one particular place also worries me that there may be something happening to the these individuals other than them being tazed. I realize that not all officers are completly honest with ER staff as to what happens in the field when the individual is being detained, so that may also be a possibility. I work in a large city Level 1 Trauma Center, and all police related injuries come to use and I've never seen any serious injuries due to tazors, our pts that come in after being tazed are usually there because they've hurt themselves or have had help hurting themselves when going to the ground after being tazed. Sorry for rambling, but I just want to give everyone a different outlook on things. I believe that the invention of tazors is wonderful, and just imagine if tazors were not available how many people would have leathal force used against them because they are threatening to an officer's life. My husband always says, every time I walk out the door I don't know if I'll be coming home, beacuse there is always that chance that he will uncounter someone who he believes he can talk down from a situation, but the situation escalates, and his life is taken in the process.
I have worked forensic nursing in the past year. Proven fact: tasers do not kill people. not one case has been proven. the damage to a person on the receiving end comes from the fall sustained after the taser is applied. Officers in my area are trained to control the persons fall. there are always situations that this may have not occured. One should learn of non lethal interventions before making such bold statements.
Sorry, but as a cardiac nurse, I don't find it too farfetched to believe that given the right combination of condition and circumstances, a person could die from being Tasered.
Of course, you're entitled to your opinion and I respect that. But to me, it sounds even more farfetched to declare that it's a "proven fact" that Tasers do not kill someone, but a gound-level fall does kill someone?
Nope. Anecdotal evidence points to a whole 'nother direction. If, in fact, the fall itself were the culprit in these deaths, there would be more deaths associated with falls when police have to take down a non-Tasered suspect.
Look up "Ipperwash Inquiry" on the net to discover a horrendous case of police brutality-the sad thing is the health care system in that area is not much better. I've worked there and if ever there was a situation of institutionalized racisim it would be there. How do you feel about shooting an unarmed native in the back during a peaceful sitin (land claim protest) Makes you ashamed to be caucasian
I appreciate the replies i have received. gadilady if i could e-mail you i would like to ask a few questions about your career. i may have to make a change in career decisions. but back to the teasers, the cops before they are allowed to carry one they have to have one used on them at full blast. yes it hurts them but does not kill them. cops are not wimps eating donuts, or at the ones out on the beat or streets. thanks to all.
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jadeblu
5 Posts
As with any profession there is good and bad. I have worked as a nurse for the prison system for 6 years. Yes there are those people in a uniform that play god. Then there are the ones who truely can tone down a confrontational situation. I think the answer to these problems is education. There is not enough emphasis on dealing with psychotic people in the training academies. Especially in the smaller communities where you have officers making 10 bucks an hour to put there life on the line.