Petition to forgive student loan debt!

Student4_life · Sep 19, 2011

And if communism is so great why has it never been implemented???

Without the promise of greatness, where does the motivation to be great come from? Why would doctors and engineers work so damn hard to get a degree if they would get paid the same as CNA's and Day Laborers?

SummitRN, BSN, RN · Sep 19, 2011

Communism has never been implemented on this planet - so I fail to see how you could say that "it doesn't work".
North Korea is not a Communist country.
I'd be curious to read what you think Marx was "wrong" about.

Your idealistic version of communism cannot exist on a large scale, only small communes that can selectively choose and expel members. That is what Marx never understood. We live in the real world and must deal with human nature. Communist movements inevitably lead to all the failure and horror we have seen from the communist states we have seen over the last almost 90 years because that is human nature.

I think extreme libertarians miss this point as well.

AppalachianRNstudent · Sep 19, 2011

Your idealistic version of communism cannot exist on a large scale, only small communes that can selectively choose and expel members. That is what Marx never understood. We live in the real world and must deal with human nature. Communist movements inevitably lead to all the failure and horror we have seen from the communist states we have seen over the last almost 90 years because that is human nature.
I think extreme libertarians miss this point as well.

My conception of socialism is not idealist - but grounded in objective reality and informed by the materialist conception of history. The theory of utopian socialism (which actually postulated that communes and moral arguments were the road to socialism) died with Claude Saint-Simon and Robert Owen in the early 19th century. Marx and Engels rightly explained that any struggle for socialism must take - as it's point of departure - the objective conditions of the world beginning with it's economic foundation.

Human nature is not a static set of qualities that always lead to X, Y, or Z. The world always changes and human nature must adapt to these changes or be cast to extinction. Capitalism is a protracted state of decay - we must adapt or be cast into barbarism.

I challenge you to name one communist country that has ever existed on this planet.

Hospice Nurse LPN, BSN, RN · Sep 19, 2011

I am sure that is true. But you are also an LPN with 15 years of experience. So, I would imagine you make more than $10.00/hour Also, are you participating in your employer's tuition reimbursement program (if they have one...this seems like another beneft going to the way side)?

Yes, I do make more than $10/hr! :) My employer does not have tuition reimbursement, but they are allowing me to continue w/ my full-time bennies: vaca, ins, etc while I work 16 hrs/week. Just a verbal promise that I would stay on p graduation.

Saysfaa · Sep 19, 2011

It is still being done, even without 15 years of experience. My daughter graduated with a bachelors degree last Dec with no debt. She worked a lot of hours while in high school and saved nearly all of it, cut room and board costs by being an RA, maxed out the less expensive ways of getting credits (like AP credit, CLEPping, and maxing out the credits she could transfer from a community college).

Others do it by taking turns going to school... one spouse works more than full time to pay the living expenses for both while the other goes to school then vs vs.

"I waited until I was 22 to start college. By this time I had a good schedule with good shifts as a waitress because of the 5 years I had spent working there. I paid for my tuition out of pocket and took 3 years at a community college. It took me 3 years to finish 2 years of work because I needed to get excellent grades and could only afford 10 to 12 credits at a time. I then transferred to a four year university to finish with my BS in nursing. ... [i was told] Students loans are good debt. I am so glad I did not listen to them." http://www.daveramsey.com/article/10-things-you-wish-you-knew-in-college/lifeandmoney_college/

And quite a few people without degrees make more than $10 an hour.... by working unpopular hours and/or unpleasant jobs if they aren't talented enough or lucky enough to do it any other way.

AppalachianRNstudent · Sep 19, 2011

And if communism is so great why has it never been implemented???
Without the promise of greatness, where does the motivation to be great come from? Why would doctors and engineers work so damn hard to get a degree if they would get paid the same as CNA's and Day Laborers?

It's a complicated question because each attempt took place under certain and varying objective conditions. Russia for example was a thoroughly backward country. This dynamic set the stage for Stalin and Bukharin's eventual capitulation to the theory of "socialism in one country" which is not Marxist. The adoption of this theory led to a deformed workers state with a powerful bureaucratic caste set apart from the rest of society.

China (through Mao and the CCP) followed a similar path in the 1950's. Mao catered to the rural peasantry and the national bourgeoisie - which was decidedly anti-working class and anti-socialist.

The motivation to "be great" is trumped by the need for food, clothing, shelter, education, health care, transportation, arts & culture etc . . . Socialism represents the next stage in human social evolution - an improvement of society.

Last, the vast amount of wealth currently concentrated in the hands of the few is enough to allow everyone a reasonably high standard of living - which could portend true freedom for mankind if it were expropriated and re-allocated to meet human need.

Hospice Nurse LPN, BSN, RN · Sep 19, 2011

... [i was told] Students loans are good debt. I am so glad I did not listen to them." http://www.daveramsey.com/article/10-things-you-wish-you-knew-in-college/lifeandmoney_college/

I love me some Dave Ramsey! Thus, I eat beans and rice and rice and beans while working toward this degree.

SummitRN, BSN, RN · Sep 19, 2011

Well, I guess the logical extension of a movement to forgive all student loans naturally lends itself to attracting communist agitators wishing to foment the world wide workers revolution.

It's always funny to watch the typical communist arguments:

1. My idea of communism isn't unrealistic idealism, but all the other communists up until now didn't do things according to my communist ideal therefore communism never actually failed. Therefor it wasn't really the communists who killed and repressed all those untold millions.

2. It is impossible for communism to exist until the the entire world is communist. Surely then it will be a success; until then it cannot fail.

3. Capitalism, the system that has run the world lately in several forms, some good some bad, wait no all bad... wait... Capitalism didn't actually make all the good things. Capitalism is destroying the great world we have which was created by capitalists. I mean... wait... what?

4. We don't need rewards of success to motivate people. People will work as hard as they can because they want to feed/clothe/education/paint for others and they won't care how much they get paid because money isn't to be had, nor property. Everyone will get what someone in the government decides they need. All we need to do is take all the resources everyone has earned so far and give them to people who haven't earned them. There's enough to go around and make us all equal (but some will be more equal than others)... for this generation.

It's quite easy to see why communism does fail. The illogic required to buy into that sort of thinking inevitably will lead any system to failure, communist or not.

And with that, I'm out of this thread!

AppalachianRNstudent · Sep 19, 2011

Well, I guess the logical extension of a movement to forgive all student loans naturally lends itself to attracting communist agitators wishing to foment the world wide workers revolution.
It's always funny to watch the typical communist arguments:
1. My idea of communism isn't unrealistic idealism, but all the other communists up until now didn't do things according to my communist ideal therefore communism never actually failed. Therefor it wasn't really the communists who killed and repressed all those untold millions.
2. It is impossible for communism to exist until the the entire world is communist. Surely then it will be a success; until then it cannot fail.
3. Capitalism, the system that has run the world lately in several forms, some good some bad, wait no all bad... wait... Capitalism didn't actually make all the good things. Capitalism is destroying the great world we have which was created by capitalists. I mean... wait... what?
4. We don't need rewards of success to motivate people. People will work as hard as they can because they want to feed/clothe/education/paint for others and they won't care how much they get paid because money isn't to be had, nor property. Everyone will get what someone in the government decides they need. All we need to do is take all the resources everyone has earned so far and give them to people who haven't earned them. There's enough to go around and make us all equal (but some will be more equal than others)... for this generation.
It's quite easy to see why communism does fail. The illogic required to buy into that sort of thinking inevitably will lead any system to failure, communist or not.

1. It's not my idea. It's predicated on the theory of permanent revolution founded by Trotsky and the establishment of the ICFI in 1938.

2. To paraphrase Trotsky - the revolution begins on the national arena - it unfolds on the international arena and is completed on the world stage with the entire transition of our planet.

3. Gibberish.

4. A complete misunderstanding of my argument.

And with that, I'm out of this thread!

Bye.

CCL RN, RN · Sep 20, 2011

Perhaps 10, 15, or 20 years ago during a time when a deep recession was not occuring. Also, I am sure it was during a time when tuition rate increases did not exceed cost of living by 600%. You CAN NOT compare what you did some time ago with today. You are not comparing apples to apples. Sorry.

Uh-I graduated just ~6 yrs ago, and $10/hr is bad in *any* economy. And I had plenty of tuition increases... So yes, I CAN compare the two.

It happens. It's called hard work and sacrifice.