pay scale- why so hush hush??

AndiMac · Dec 7, 2003

I've never had any job where it was OK to discuss salaries. Although everyone always did, and still do.

$11.25 sounds extremely low, especially for my area. I'm a new grad, no experience, working in a low paying area any way, (assisted living) and I'm still making $13.00. Which is low here. But I like my job, so I don't mind the low pay.

cannoli · Dec 7, 2003

Originally posted by jenac
The inherit problem here is that noone is the "same". While I may bust my hump for eight hours and do the best job I can- the nurse next door sits on hers and does only the barest of minimums. Where I am always there to lend a helping hand when needed, the nurse next door has no "time" or inclination to help out- she says with a folded newspaper in her lap and a nailfile in hand. Or how about the nurse who is always willing to pick up the extra shifts when there is a call-off or a short-staffing verses the one who works her eight and bolts for the door? Or how about the one who has multiple med errors and reprimandes on file, while I have none? Should this nurse be paid more than I am just because she's been there longer? Or should pay scales be variable, dependant on the workers actual job performance? What each of us as an employee are worth to that company?

As my earlier post states- I am a firm beleiver in negotiating wages. I ask for what I'm worth- and I prove that worth over and over. If you feel that your being underpaid-as for more. The worst they can do is say no.

"same", I'm talking about education, years of experience, etc.

Two new hires, not new grads, with the same level of education, experience, credentials, etc. Why should one be paid a higher salary than another?

The problem with "merit" raises is that they are often subjective, not based on measurable criteria, and people still are not getting paid fairly for what they are worth. The nurse that busts her butt while the other one sits with the newspaper and nailfile is not necessarily going to get a higher raise particularly if the one with the newspaper is friends with whoever is making out the evaluation. It may be more likely that the nurse with the nailfile is the one getting the raise.

"Merit" may work in theory but not necessarily in practice.

Agnus · Dec 7, 2003

Originally posted by Peeps Mcarthur
Why don't y'all use some of that fancy-smancy communication technique:)

Understand what the potential employer's apprehension is all about...........privacy. So before you would begin a personal dialogue, you have to put the interviewer at ease and calm thier fears before any useful communication can occur.

Just tell them "before we get started, I want you to know that I won't discuss anything we say with potential or current employees, whether I'm hired or not (of course, you're no more sincere than they are) That being said, there's important information that I need from you before we continue"

That way you're in control from the start and the potential employer can relax the ol' sphincter for a bit.

Please, help me out as I am one of those that settles. Basically for the first offer made. Are you saying to ask directly about salary at the start of the interivew? This flys in the face of all the "expert advice we get about this now days.

However, if this works then I will try it. The worst that can happen is that I don't receive an offer.

Some how talking about $$ is "supposed to be" bad form. Which is kind of funny considering that is a VERY major factor in the equation.

So do I just ask at the start? And not waste their (and my)time if it is not acceptable? Do I start negotiations right away or if they are in my ball park discuss my qualifications and use that for leverage in negotiations? Help me I am sincere with these questions.

caroladybelle, BSN, RN · Dec 7, 2003

Originally posted by pieWACKet
caroladybelle said
"However, the two unionized hospitals that I have worked had possibly the most lazy, donothing staffers among the unionized staff (the RNs were not union). Many of these people I would not want caring for my worst enemy. "
Ok, so you're unionized personnel was not nursing. Point taken, and my point accentuated. Nursing has few slackers, in general we are VERY hard working and deserving of knowing our own, and other's worth [best described in the union arena]

Thank you for being incredibly dismissive, it says a great deal about your stance.

And I suppose that means you do not think of LPNs or CNAs as part of Nursing.

And I have worked with plenty of slackers with the "RN" beside their name.

And I repeat, working beside slackers drags everyone on the team down.

You know, team - a group of people working together for a common goal - what unions really should have as a goal. Unfortunately, some unions have frequently failed at team work.

sbic56, BSN, RN · Dec 7, 2003

Originally posted by Mr_D
Big picture? The really big picture is it's been a huge fight that started late in the 19th century. Workers realized they were getting exploited, getting paid mere pennies per hundred dollars of revenue they brought in. They banded together. Result was unionizing, birth of socialism, communism, all kinds of -isms to get working people a larger piece of the pie. And it's been a tense knock-down fight ever since.

The same forces are still at odds today.
** The less money you take means more money for someone else, period. **

Employers don't want you talking about it b/c it tends to make it more difficult for them negotiate a lower wage. If each and every wage earner negotiates for themselves, mgmt can take advantage of the those who are less skilled at negotiation. ** If you don't know what your peers are earning, you are in a weak negotiating posture. **
They have an inherant negotiating advantage when salary information is kept secret.

Case in point, several years ago, my best friend, an exemplary employee, was making $35k for years (with the usually 2-4% annual increases). She started discreetly asking around to friends and associates and discovered she was vastly underpaid. With that information and resolve to get a better deal, she went to her manager. The meeting lasted all of 5 minutes. Manager's reply was something like "I wondered when you would figure this out". She asked for and got a 55% increase. At first she was quite angry that people she worked with would take advantage of her for years. And quickly discovered that's a waste of emotional energy and time. ** Her manager's job is to get the BEST help at the CHEAPEST price. ** That's capitalism -- American as apple pie.

My advice to anyone in the work force:

1. *Discreetly* learn how flout to this rule
2. Learn the art of diplomacy and negotiation

Discreetly figure out what others are making. It's a lot easier with the internet and salary surveys. Firsthand information is always better. Figure out how to have conversations with trusted co-workers, ex co-workers (excellant sources of information), friends at similiar companies. My wife invites the HR hiring rep out to lunch every so often -- just to establish a relationship.

Figuring out what others make can at first be a tricky conversation -- and you can learn how to do it. Approximately 25 - 33% of your peers have learned this skill. Mgmt want to keep that number low as possible -- hence draconian punishments if you "talk about it openly".

In my career, I've made it a skill to learn what other people make. As a contractor -- it's was the difference between mediocre contract and a good one. Hey, either I got the $$ or the agency did. Case in point: For a unique computer application job, the agency offered me $24 per hour and a big ole smile. I was prepared. I walked out with a deal at $37 per hour. Given my skills, experience, and *negotiating posture* that was my true market value. They charged the client $110 per hour regardless. It cost me a only a couple of beers to figure that one out. I knew all this by developing some key relationships and then (directly or indirectly) asking.

good luck.

Excellent post worth repeating. No need to get mad, just understand how it works. Also, moving to a new job about every five years is one sure way to get what you are worth.

fergus51 · Dec 7, 2003

Originally posted by caroladybelle
Thank you for being incredibly dismissive, it says a great deal about your stance.

And I suppose that means you do not think of LPNs or CNAs as part of Nursing.

And I have worked with plenty of slackers with the "RN" beside their name.

And I repeat, working beside slackers drags everyone on the team down.

You know, team - a group of people working together for a common goal - what unions really should have as a goal. Unfortunately, some unions have frequently failed at team work.

The union is only as united as its members (nurses), and I agree with you that nurses have frequently failed at team work. Fortunately I don't work with many slackers:) I prefer the payscale that a union guarantees, but I know this isn't for everyone. I can say with 100% certainty that I would change jobs if ANY new grad was making more money than me, no matter how hard working they are.

Peeps Mcarthur · Dec 8, 2003

By Angus

So do I just ask at the start? And not waste their (and my)time if it is not acceptable? Do I start negotiations right away or if they are in my ball park discuss my qualifications and use that for leverage in negotiations? Help me I am sincere with these questions.

I know what you are saying, but "negotiations" are used at the end of the process. When they are ready to negotiate, it will be specific and it will be to get you. Negotiations require comprimise. There should be no compromise in an openning interview. It's just an information gathering session. One of the most important facts is salary and can be easily "ball-parked" with an average, without angst on the potential employers part. "negotiations" come when you want them to be specific about where you fall on that scale.

I think that if you are experienced in the area of expertise that you are applying, then, they need to sell you on the job. They are wasting your time, not thiers, if they delay you in the time it takes to secure employment that is suitable for you.

It should be no problem, whether you are a new grad or a seasoned nurse, to be able to give you a salary range for that position. If it is comensurate (hate that word) with local averages, it should not come as a surprise to either of you. The range will be based on experience and placement of your starting salary far enough away from the top of the scale so they can give you the 2-4% annual for awhile without topping you out. They must know approximately what they are planning to give in salary benefit in order to know what they will pocket after expenses.

In my opinnion, they could not run a position request past thier boss without knowing what it would mean to the revenue of the dept so they could justify it. They should not expect to 'run the position request' past you without justifying its full value.

Salary is one of the most important variables for me. When you do overtime, shift differential, and calculate what your max annual raise will be, it will be dependent on your base salary.

I would say that salary is my first objective in evaluating the potential of a job to satisfy my needs, and all the other benefits will reflect what that salary is worth. My potential employer's objective is finding out what revenue I'm worth to them and my potential longevity to provide that revenue.

A potential employer that is not interested in my objectives in the interview, should not get a second one.

Truly-Blessed · Dec 8, 2003

Originally posted by purplemania
the reason for hush hush is because you would be tempted to compare your work with someone else's and decide it not fair that person is paid more so you develop attitude that interfers with job. People in unions are paid by seniority perhaps, but that is not always equitable because it benefits the unproductive worker. Have not found a truly equitable system. Our HR posts hi-median and lo salary ranges for each position to give people idea where they stand. Basically if you feel you are worth more than what you are being paid and cannot get it there, try somewhere else.

Beginning LPN pay here is about what you quoted.

In South Florida LPN pay in hospitals are approx $12-13/h with shift and weekend dif

In SNF (Nursing homes) $16-18/h for LPN. Big difference.

dphrn · Dec 8, 2003

Thank you Peeps Mcarthur. Great information.