Orlando Tragedy - "Why Does It Bother You So Much?"

[jaycam]

This past weekend is still something that has struck fear into the core of my community, even though I live on the other side of the country. I'm not going to debate about how it could have been prevented, because hindsight is always 20/20. I'm not going to debate it because there are as many different ideas on how to prevent it as there are people who know about it. What I want to do is expose myself, and explain why something that happened so far away from me could affect me on such a personal level.

No matter what you call it, LGBT(Q,+,A), QUILTBAG, or my personal favorite Alphabet Soup Gang... there is a community out there for those of us who don't quite fit the norm. My favorite comes from the fact that we are all a bit alike, all a little different, and we're all floating in this big huge bowl we call Earth. Also the letters change all the time depending on who you talk to and if I am going to offend someone for using the wrong ones, at least I'm going down in style.

I get a little flack at times from the community, at times, for not getting it, because "you pass... no one knows unless you choose to tell them." See, I'm not what most people think of when they think of the LGBTQ. Mostly because I don't get all twiterpatted when I see someone posed in what someone would consider sexual nature. My response tends more towards "Oh... look at that... "and insert interesting bit of biology about their tattoo, a mole, or the muscle structure. I'm someone who dates for romance and companionship instead of physical attraction. I was married when I was younger. I'm Christian. I can easily come off as heterosexual with no time or too conservative to join the local dating scene. Personally I don't care about someone's gender. I date people for being interesting and kind hearted with similar interests. In the community I'm often referred to as panromantic. I don't usually bother with a label though.

At the same time, I've also been on the receiving end of attacks from people mad at me for not being interested in them. Be it because how dare I not be attracted, or because they think I just haven't met the right person yet, or just because I find comfort being around the others with the same experiences. Many of my first experiences out into the world involved going to the local "gay bar" to sing karaoke with all the other people who just didn't feel like they fit society's expectations for them. Going to a friend's place to support them because someone had threatened them.

Our culture, as a community comes from the places and experiences we have been through. We've had the awkward conversations with medical professionals when they ask if we are sexually active and the follow up is about birth control or pregnancy, and we end up outing ourselves to strangers who are not always understanding. We've been bullied for similar reasons. Been told we don't really exist. That we're going through a phase. Sometimes by the medical community itself. We trade names of providers who are "safe" like most people trade the titles of their favorite books.

It bothers me because... those people who were hurt and died... I have a common thread to them. I cried when I found out what happened. Those people were someone's child, parent, cousin, friend... They remind me of my own monkey sphere of people I know. Even if it hadn't been people I know... I've seen the threats towards LGBTQ and Muslim students at my school. I go to an awesome school in a progressive area. We are great and inclusive and that things like that still happen... is scary. It bothers me that media wants to focus on who did it and how, rather than the bright and brilliant people who are lost to the community.

It's something that should bother everyone. It should bother us all. Today it was the LGBTQ community. It's happening in black communities. It happens in our schools. Even if we have no personal connection to what has happened, it should at the very least bother us, because who is to know what the next target of choice will be. If we can't find a way to be bothered that people died because someone's personally held belief was so strong they felt it was alright to kill someone... even if we disagree with the person's lifestyle, they didn't deserve this. No one does, and that bothers me.

[Skeptic-]

I will be the first to say that the LBGT community's practice is an abomination to Gods will.

Please...get back to having articles that deal with issues related to the practice of nursing and not the "push" of an agenda!

Says the religious bigot who would have no problem with this conversation if LBGT was replaced with Christianity. You may think you're a good person because you take care of people as a nurse, but like they say, it's what is inside that counts, and you are rotten to the core.

[Skeptic-]

Mfs1 - what ideology are you referring to, specifically?

If it's Islam, I really have to challenge your generalization. This has nothing to do with being PC. It's about an inaccurate and incomplete stereotype of who is doing what to whom.

Did the shooter use bits and pieces of Islamic religious thought to rationalize his evil? Probably - though the only direct evidence I know of is his statement of allegiance to Muslim terrorist groups. I also have read that he expressed loyalty to groups that actually oppose each other philosophically, so I tend to question his grasp of both his own religion and the politics of Middle Eastern terrorists. This is why I find the stereotype inaccurate.

I also find the reference terribly incomplete because you seem to be ignoring the fact that, over time, at least as many homosexuals have been abused and slaughtered in the name of Jesus as Allah.

They, too, cherrypick bits and pieces of Christian thought to justify themselves. And no, these murders are not just buried in the distant past - there are Christian clergy actively preaching today that Christians greatly please God by killing "the abominations", both here and abroad.

The firebombing of the Upstairs Lounge in 1973 is a case in point. The perpetrator was never caught, so we cannot know how the SOB rationalized the act - but I'm fairly sure there wasn't a Muslim in sight. Given the heavily Christianized culture of the US, it's also a pretty fair bet that s/he would identify as Christian.

32 people were burned alive in that attack. One article I checked reports that churches - Christian churches - refused to bury the victims. The article also reports a popular joke that made the rounds about burying the queers in fruit jars. Sorry, but Muslims do not have a corner on hate.

So, if it's Islamic thought you're naming as an ideology of hate, then the same name has to be applied to Christianity.

It's kind of a chicken or egg question: does the religion cause the hate ... or is the religion being used as political cover for the underlying hate and lust for dominance?

I think it's important and valuable to look at just how foreign terrorists are able to radicalize American citizens here at home, born and raised with all the rights and benefits of being born here. I certainly agree that religiously based terrorism played a big part in the Orlando crime. I do not agree that the religion of Islam caused the murders.

I think that a real root cause analysis would show a perfect storm of homophobia, a dysfunctional and abusive personality, a closet case's psychotic projection of his own self hate and easy access to lethal technology, all of it kicked into overdrive by a misused and poorly understood religion.

This post is probably too long. Sorry.

Islam may be a religion of peace, but it is also a political ideology of hate with obvious intentions to conquer that aren't hidden or anything. They make it all very clear.

Throwing Christianity under the bus is fine. Just another religion and it's all nonsense that nobody can prove. Christianity gets hammered hard when it encroaches on people's freedoms and liberties. TV shows parody and mock Christianity at every turn. It's the social norm, and great, people should be allowed to criticize anything.

Islam on the other hand has political immunity from most criticism by politically correct well intentioned idiots. When people do mock Islam you have significantly more chance of backlash, from the media, and even more chance of violence (France attacks.) All the bigotry from moderate Christian's is there for moderate Muslims too. Everybody knows "not all X" do "Y."

I'm no Christian, but Christianity is leagues above Islam when it comes to how damaging it is to this world. Christianity has what, the Westboro Baptist Church, and maybe smaller, unknown sects just as bad. Islam has several countries that sweep the Westboro Baptist Church out of the park when it comes to morality.

Islam is about as anti LGBT as it gets, and every time I see a member suggest that Islam isn't so bad, it just saddens me. I know it comes from a place of good intentions, but it is self destructive. Pure Islam, untamed, like in Saudi Arabia or other such countries is the last place a LGBT or woman even(half the population) would want to be if they had the slightest clue what the religion dictates when unchallenged by reasonable laws.

Islam as a whole, is probably the most dangerous thing for civil liberty and freedom on the planet.

I'm not suggesting you disagree with everything I'm saying, this is all more a message for everybody. Believing in fairy tales is all good till people start getting killed and it starts oppressing people.

[heron, ASN, RN]

Skeptic - not buyin' it. Christianity is a political ideology, too, for large swathes of our citizenry. Muslims don't have a corner on that, either.

Read your history.

You are partially correct in that the biggest threat to lgbt people is Muslim extremism - in majority Muslim countries. But the US, where this crime occurred, is not and is unlikely to become majority Muslim. Here at home, Christian extremists are a far greater threat and have been since Europe invaded this continent.

Find another another rationale for your Holy Crusade. This one doesn't work. Every single homophobic threat to my life, safety and welfare in the 40 years I've been out has come at the hands of self-described Christians. I don't believe for a minute that your argument has anything to do with any real concern or compassion for lgbt people being slaughtered elsewhere. You don't get to use me and my people as ethical cover for something hateful.

ETA: Now, if you want to discuss religious extremism and the blurring of the line between church and state, we'd have something to agree about, I suspect. I most definitely would agree that religious extremism and resulting theocracies are a huge threat to human rights and freedoms.

[Skeptic-]

I'm not trying to downplay Christianity, everybody knows what it is all about(in the USA at least) and it is stuck where it is, in the USA at least. I know it's rapidly growing in the Latino countries and the Pope is eating that up.

I'd say it's pretty clear that you have only had Christian's giving you gruff all your life, because you live in a Christian land full of Christians with hardly any Muslims at all. The USA is one of the most religious countries in the world, especially topping the ranks when you are looking at just Christianity. 65% of American's think religion is important to their daily life. Despite the vastly different demographic ratio, per capita Muslim extremism blows Christians out of the water in terms of events like this last one. How often do you hear about a mass shooting inspired by the Christian god? Hardly ever. It's always some lone crazy weirdo or Islam. Here in the USA with our insignificant Muslim population, we still have mass shootings and bombings regularly every year, in the name of Allah.

I'm certainly not on a holy crusade, as I'm not inspired by religion and am not religious myself obviously. Also I don't hate Muslims or wish ill on them for being Muslims as a "crusade" would imply. I despise anybody that would wish ill upon innocent civilians for being who they are, which is exactly why I am critical of Islam.Forcing women to wear ninja outfits:ninja: in public so they don't get raped or worse(because us guys just can't control ourselves, not because it's socially acceptable to do so /sarcasm), imprisoning and executing people with a barbaric standard fit for medieval times, spreading the gospel by murdering crowds of non-believers, punishing those that don't believe....these are just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to why I despise some people and what they teach. Islam is about as anti-freedom as it gets. Just because someone knows a Muslim and they're a good guy doesn't discount what the unrestrained religion does on a regular basis.

If someone is against these things, I don't care what they call themselves, Muslim, Christian, Gay, they're all good with me. Titles mean nothing when compared to beliefs. One could argue that people aren't being true to the core teachings of their religion when they aren't sick maniacs but I don't care, it's all stupid and the less people abide by it the better.

I'm not using LGBT's as a reason to dislike bad people, I already disliked bad people before this and will continue to for the rest of my life. I do indeed care about LGBT people being imprisoned or worse, stoned to death even. It is so disturbing to me that this still happens, that it could happen. I have been arguing for years about how Islam is terrible for gays(before all the letters) and women. This is the first post I've made anywhere, with any regard to this latest attack as I'm not a full time internet rage dispenser or anything of the sort, I came to this forum because nursing is the only job I've ever known and I ran across this thread. Calling me hateful is a pretty sneaky attack to make me look low, but do you hate the people who would do things like this atrocity any less than I do? Do I need ethical cover to hate people like this? I didn't even mention the word in my first post and I don't often throw out the word hate, but I guess it's safe to say that I hate anybody that would murder innocent people, no matter who the innocents are, even white men *gasp* I don't feel some burning rage inside every time I think about them, it's more like the pain scale. 1 being someone you like the most and 10 being someone you like the least, my wife and son get a 1 and I give these guys a 10, I dislike them the most in my life.

I guess you assume I'm not gay and you're right, I'm not. I hate having to say **** like this because I shouldn't have to but you are already ostracizing me, oh well, here it is. I have been very close to gay people for most of my life. Gay friends and even a Gay roommate, just the two of us. Never known any lesbians. Part of why I feel the need to say this is because I don't think of them as my gay friends, just my friends. I hate all the segregation that people sneakily label diversity. To be clear, I'm not saying that diversity is bad, just that the term is hijacked often for what I speak of. I think minorities are doing themselves harm by being so closed-grouped like is demonstrated several times in this thread. Us and them, often us vs them. It's a bad mindset. The same thing happens with race. Black churches, black neighborhoods, often by choice but then used to play the race card later. There is a lot of commonality with all minorities with the us vs them mindset and it's all bad.

I have read my fair share of history and again, this attack is lame, it's pretty generic and people say it when debating literally anything. Anyways, I thank this country for keeping a lot of bad **** out. If we were one of the middle eastern countries we'd have real issues to contend with each day. The western world with it's western values gives us the freedom and peace to have semantic arguments about what letter should be added next, etc. Islam threatens all western values and is incompatible with it in its truest form.

The blue side I've always voted for always seems to want to bend over a little too far for my liking when it comes to not offending people. This wouldn't be such an issue if Islam didn't use it's religious categorization as a shield to block all criticism and even calling people "racist" somehow works for many of them despite Islam not being a race. Nothing should be off limits when it comes to criticism and questions, the criticism is either valid or it's not and it's up to the people to decide, but blocking the ability to do so is terrible for everybody that that enjoys freedom. From mainstream Islam censoring the world, all the way to articles and videos that disable comments, it's all bad and a sign that the author knows there are valid criticisms they'd not be addressed. I don't think that Islam is going to take over the USA, but I still think it's a plague to humanity that is doing bad, and basically zero good.

I'm sure we agree on most everything it seems if we were compared to any other random person, we're simply getting very fine print here. I never intend on these being so long. Must...quit.....typing....

Cheers

[heron, ASN, RN]

Skeptic - a couple of points:

I didn't call you hateful ... I called your blanket condemnation of Islam hateful. It is. You simply have no clue what you're talking about.

Your analysis of diversity is identical to that of people who seek to erase a problematic history by pretending that it was all in the past and, after all we're all human and equal now, tra-la, so none of that matters. The so-called "color-blind" boast is a prime example of that. No one is color blind. Let a non-white person express anything white folks are uncomfortable about, and it becomes very obvious. Whole books are written on the subject of cultural erasure, so I'm not going into it here. It's a can of worms that needs it's own thread ... or website.

With regard to Orlando, what many of us object to is the attempt to disappear the long history of violence against lgbt people in this culture, justified and still being promoted by the dominant religion of this culture. Yes, of course my personal experience is with Christians because I live in this culture. That was my whole point.

What was hateful about your argument was the illogical assertion that, since the lunatic who perpetrated this particular atrocity was a Muslim, then we must agree that Islam is evil and must be wiped out. And that most certainly is using us as ethical cover for a call to genocide. And I object to that.

[Skeptic-]

Skeptic - a couple of points:

I didn't call you hateful ... I called your blanket condemnation of Islam hateful. It is. You simply have no clue what you're talking about.

I addressed this clearly, I do not have a blanket condemnation of Islam, but rather people who wish ill of people just because they are different. I suggest you read my last comment. I even put it in bold. It's not a crazy stance to have, being against murderers and people who wish murder on people. I don't get why you appear to have such a problem with this. Call it a hateful stance if you must, seems like a reach.

Skeptic - a couple of points:

Your analysis of diversity is identical to that of people who seek to erase a problematic history by pretending that it was all in the past and, after all we're all human and equal now, tra-la, so none of that matters. The so-called "color-blind" boast is a prime example of that. No one is color blind. Let a non-white person express anything white folks are uncomfortable about, and it becomes very obvious. Whole books are written on the subject of cultural erasure, so I'm not going into it here. It's a can of worms that needs it's own thread ... or website.

Whoa! Settle down there. Obviously I am touching on something bigger here that is controversial? I dunno, I only meant what I said and you should not imply some greater argument. Don't strawman me and put words in my mouth.

Skeptic - a couple of points:

With regard to Orlando, what many of us object to is the attempt to disappear the long history of violence against lgbt people in this culture, justified and still being promoted by the dominant religion of this culture. Yes, of course my personal experience is with Christians because I live in this culture. That was my whole point.

Yes, I do see your point and I didn't address it properly. Going way back to why you said this. I said that LGBT people basically should dislike Islam and it frustrates me when I see them promoting understanding and acceptance of an ideology that would never accept them back. (paraphrasing there and maybe it makes more sense now) I was never trying to say that "LGBT's have it tough here in America because of all the Muslims," because that would obviously be retarded. I do live in the same reality as you.

Skeptic - a couple of points:

What was hateful about your argument was the illogical assertion that, since the lunatic who perpetrated this particular atrocity was a Muslim, then we must agree that Islam is evil and must be wiped out. And that most certainly is using us as ethical cover for a call to genocide. And I object to that.

Are you kidding me??? Where did I say or imply that I wanted death for anybody, let alone genocide? Are you serious!? I most certainly am not using "you" and "you're people" as ethical cover for a call to genocide. I would object to that also, wanting genocide, but still you are making wild assumptions and it is ridiculous. You're saying that I'm making illogical assertions, lol?

Next time don't stereotype people so much. I say something critical of Islam so I want them all to die? Hell no. Give me a break...I don't wish death on anybody, not even murderers. You haven't a clue what I think.

Like all nonsense and ignorance in the world, I suggest that it be attacked with knowledge and logic. Please no crazy assumptions next time, you simply have no clue what you're talking about.

[heron, ASN, RN]

You watch way too much Bill Maher.

[Skeptic-]

Lol, I've literally never seen an episode. I have seen a couple one minute clips over the years. Far too much I guess. He did seem pretty reasonable now that you mention it, thanks for the association?

I do not get my opinions from other people, I don't subscribe to liberal or conservative anything. I simply hear about an issue, and form an opinion while trying to stay as rational as possible. Fighting for your rights as a LGBT woman has been something I've done my whole life, way before it was accepted as normal in the youth. I'm sorry that I'm white and I'm sorry that I'm male, I'm doing what I can with this cursed skin and member.

Anger poisons everything it's involved in and usually fuels people's needs to subscribe to any author when it is political, they just want reinforcing arguments pounded into their brain to make them feel right. Think about this next time you are watching your favorite opinion maker on TV.

[future_RN, CNA]

unfortunately, the people with an agenda are using this attack as cover to attack another "politically incorrect" group - gun owners. The fact that gun owners & the lgbt community aren't necessarily overtly "friendly" to each other only helps those with the agenda, though I think there's more support for the "pink pistols" in the "hetero/bubba gun-lover" community than anyone would expect. Divide & conquer works really well in this situation & your post proves that.

How am is my post proving that this divides people? I'm sorry but that is an opinion and not a fact. My statement went towards anyone, pro-gun laws, anti-gun laws, and people who are neither. You divided yourself, by assuming that pro-gun law individuals are using this attack as cover to attack another "politically incorrect group." When you've done your evidence-based research on your conspiracy theories and they prove correct, then come talk to me. And what's the meaning of "another politically incorrect group"? 1. Are you referring to the LGBT population as a "politically incorrect group"? 2. Are you really comparing the oppression, harassment, violence, and restricted rights that LGBT people have faced for YEARS to a group of people who are legally allowed to own guns and exercise that right, and have been able to for many years depending on their geographic location? 3. My post was talking about any and everyone using this mass shooting for whatever political opinions they hold. You are talking about some unproven actions of a group of people who are "attacking" another group of people because they don't want them to have guns? That hasn't happened, you are still legally allowed to own a gun depending on your geographic location. That has not been taken away from. That was not considered a mental illness until 1974, subjecting people to treatments often inhumane for what was not an illness. 4. Divide and conquer? How? Because I asked people with political opinions and such to please stop out of respect for many people's emotions? That's so wrong of me. I apologize for dividing and conquering by asking if people please stop posting personal opinions on issues, because that is not why this post was made. Your comparison of pro-gun people to LGBT people is very ignorant. I don't know how many times you've been beat up for liking guns, denied the right to marry because you like guns, been institutionalized because you like guns, been discriminated against in the job market because you like guns, been provided inadequate healthcare resources because you like guns, and knowing in certain states you can be denied healthcare by providers because you like guns. It is not some big "woe is me" thing. People have lost their lives in horrific ways and are still being treated as subhuman by many people for being who they are. If you have never experienced that, you just don't have that schema. And that's okay, because I wouldn't wish that upon anyone. But acting like all of that, can be compared to something that has never been illegal in America (depending on location) negates the complete topic at hand.

But again, let me know when you complete your research on your theories, I would love to hear it. Please also include citations from a credible source, as clickbait pages and personal blogs are not credible. But this was a documented and nationally recognized mass shooting. Due to the fact my original statement flew well over your head, you might not hear me out on this one either. I'm not asking for understanding, all I'm asking for is respect for the dead and all those affected by it. There is no plan of division in my mind, as I have taken the time to educated you right now how to compare certain issues and realizing the effects they have had are not the same, and when an oppressed group of people are affected by a mass shooting it isn't polite to bring up things that negate the seriousness that is this event. I didn't discredit your personal feelings, just threw some facts down for you so you know. Education and recognizing something for what it is is the first step in trying to fix a problem.

[future_RN, CNA]

I agree with OffLabel. This had nothing to do with the LBGT community and EVERYTHING to do with a terrorist attack on Americans in a GUN FREE ZONE (sitting ducks).

You are so accurate. A mass shooting of 50 LGBT people in a night club renown for hosting LGBT patrons, has absolutely "nothing" to do with the LGBT community. How could a mass shooting of LGBT people make people think it had ANYTHING to do with them? (If you can't detect my absolute sarcasm, this is your hint.)

I'm not trying to be rude but this might come off as such anyways: Take a look at that and really tell me, how does that sound?

[wowohwow]

EXACTLY my thoughts. People don't need to sit here and explode with love for the LGBT community, but saying it's an abomination, at a time when 50 people have lost their lives? That's not cool.

I like it when they say "but as a good Christian" as a way to try and negate how they actually feel. I don't get that. IMO it's so hypocritical to call yourself "good" when you harbor such hate.

[Serhilda, ADN, RN]

Wow. Nothing but a bunch of homophobes looking for an excuse to dismiss the result of their outright hatred of LGBT people. To think you lot work with the general public disgusts me. Your denial of this being a direct result of homophobia successfully perpetuates the very ideas that led to this crime in the first place. It's transparent as anything.

This was the result of homophobia. When you attack our rights, shame our ""lifestyles,"" this is the result. That blood is on your hands too. Keep up the "terrorism" excuses but perhaps consider turning off fox news every now and then too, eh?