Online RN to BSN Programs

kimlpn · Jan 2, 2004

I would assume that to have such deep rooted issues with EC could only be related to a personal experience with the college. EC offers the opportunity to advance in careers and education to some who otherwise may not have the opportunity. As with anything there will always be the good and the bad! It is great to hear from former students and their success with the program! Thanks for the post Deb and Ken...it goes to show that on-line programs can be a very positive experience~!...and not to mention it is very encouraging to those of us currently in the program!!!

mona b RN, BSN, RN · Jan 2, 2004

.the following was taken from post # 11 of this thread. for some reason my quote feature is not functioning properly.

this is a quote from the second page of the thread. this is where the topic turned to ec/non traditional learning bashing. it seems to me that the poster seems to think that the only way one should obtain a professional license is her/his way.

no comparison post #11

sorry folks, but there is no comparison between university based bsn programs with hands on clinicals versus online programs. oh, did you compare them all?

online programs are more expensive because it is basically buying a degree. excelsior college costs about $8000 just for an lvn to rn program and guess what?

the california brn is no longer recognizing degrees from this college unless the candidate in question completes 360 more clinical hours and works as an lvn for 1 year. this is a move towards a better program, isn't it ?

there are no shortcuts if you want to become truly educated. life is full of shortcuts. truly, you really should come down before you fall.

i am currently in an msn/pnp program at csulb with extensive clinical time, and there were plenty of other programs i could have enrolled in that were shorter and easier (although pricier) but i wanted to do it right. well, this right here pretty much explains it.

the online grads (rn) that i have worked with so far have been very limited as far as their knowledge and skills, so much so that our hospital is no longer hiring online (only) rn grads. . how many online grads have you worked with. you must be referring to online rn-bsn grads right? correct me if i am wrong, but aren't the adn and bsn comparable in clinical experience. also, this requirement may be different depending on the state you reside in.

yes it is more effort, yes it takes longer...but if you are serious about your career and performance and not just interested in adding initials to your name, then a hands on program is the way to go. have you ever participated in a distance/online course. they are not easier and as a matter of fact to some people these course are much more challenging than traditional classroom courses.

just my opinon ( and personal experience) of course

end quote

i don't know about anyone else but i think in order to be a really good nurse one must possess the ability to be non-judgemental. this shouldn't translate into not being able to have an opinion, but it seems to me the only opinion this poster has is a negative one towards alternative education.

just my opinion.

mona

New Castle Ken · Jan 2, 2004

I think a lot of people and instructors feel that somehow online courses are easier than regular classes. This is not true. Ask anyone who teaches online or participates as a student and they will tell you that online courses take more time and effort than other classes. I have done both and teach full time online.

Ken

Sheri257 · Jan 2, 2004

Originally posted by debRNo1
We are all by well aware that LIZZ hates Excelsior and for some unknown reason LOVES to bad mouth Excelsior and its nursing program. For some unknown reason she feels compelled to jump into every discussion where EXCELSIOR is mentioned although she is in a traditional program herself.

I really was happy to leave this alone, but perhaps you've missed some of the major points of agreement between myself and some of the other Excelsior students here. And, there are some other things you may not be aware of:

1) lgflamini and I have called a truce of sorts (hey Laura ) by corresponding through PM. Perhaps you and I should do the same.

2) I don't jump on every Excelsior thread, and they're posted on this board every day.

3) I tend to agree with the other Excelsior students here, and with other states like Florida and Washington, who say only LPNs/LVNs have the relevant clinical experience to become RNs through the Exclesior program.

Otherwise, you have problems of patient endangerment, like the incident pugluvnrn described at their hospital. I do agree that California may have overreacted, possibly imposing somewhat extreme measures which ruin the chances of any legitimate students entering the program. As Kim mentioned, Excelsior apparently has decided to pull out of California all together.

Now pugluvnrn's incident did involve an LVN with limited clinical experience, so perhaps this is an example of why California required extensive documented clinical hours, even for LVNs.

Perhaps the solution would have been to limit entry to those who have several years of experience, like Teresa, Kim and Laura, but I'm sure this can be debated as well.

Like the other Exclesior students here, I do believe that someone has to develop a credible, flexible program for working adults that won't cause problems with the BONs. And, like pugluvnrn, I don't believe Excelsior will do this, unless they are forced to. This may have unfortunate consequences for students besides those who live in California, if other BONS decide to crack down.

Quite frankly, I do find fault with Exclesior, more than anything else. I still think it boils down to the $$$, and if they don't tighten up on the requirments, it will probably hurt a lot of people, including themselves. Losing California can't be good for their business, but they will probably be even less inclined to tighten up since that would lead to further loss of $$$ in the short term.

And, BTW, I don't think my school is all that great. It definitely has its flaws. I just believe in obtaining as much clinical experience as possible, and have structured my education accordingly.

BBFRN, BSN, PhD · Jan 2, 2004

Originally posted by lizz

1) lgflamini and I have called a truce of sorts (hey Laura ) by corresponding through PM. Perhaps you and I should do the same.

Hey, Lizz! :)

Originally posted by lizz
3) I tend to agree with the other Excelsior students here, and with other states like Florida and Washington, who say only LPNs/LVNs have the relevant clinical experience to become RNs through the Exclesior program.

Otherwise, you may have problems of patient endangerment, like the incident pugluvnrn described at their hospital. That's why California may have overreacted, imposing somewhat extreme measures which ruin the chances of any legitimate students entering the program. As Kim mentioned, Excelsior apparently has decided to pull out of California all together.

Now pugluvnrn's incident did involve an LVN with limited clinical experience, so perhaps this is an example of why California required extensive documented clinical hours, even for LVNs. Perhaps the solution is to limit entry to those who have several years of experience, like Teresa, Kim and Laura, but I'm sure this can be debated as well.

Like the other Excelsior students here, I do believe that someone has to develop a credible, flexible program for working adults that won't cause problems with the BONs. And, like the others, I don't believe Excelsior will do this, unless they are forced to. This may have unfortunate consequences for students besides those who live in California, if other BONS decide to crack down.

Actual personal experiences such as Lizz's (I know about Lizz's via PM)and Pug's have really made me think about EC's clinical experience requirements. I do have to agree that my own clinical experience has helped me greatly in the program. Without it, I don't think I'd be faring well at all. But I am the typical EC student (LPN-RN with clinical experience). And while I truly don't feel it's my place to judge someone's value as a future EC RN based on their previous licensure/credentials, maybe the only way to get documented evidence of how someone will fare once they're in the workforce is to have certain requirements like the ones CA and FL have mandated. At least that way, they know how many clinical hours someone has under their belt (in any discipline) before they enter a distance program. I do know EC has this policy for EMTs entering the field of nursing, but it wasn't a requirement for me as an LPN. All they needed from me was a license # and my transcripts. They had no way of knowing if I had actually been working as a nurse- just that I had an active license. And my BON placed no restrictions or requirements for clinical hrs worked in order for me to obtain my RN this way, either (and I'm receiving a BON scholarship). My previous program (a bridge program) did require documented proof of at least 1000 clinical hrs worked in order to enter their program, and this was supported by my BON. I was told by the BON that they required this for bridge program-ers to sit for the boards here. I have to say that this does make me think. You guys have made a valid point.

Sheri257 · Jan 3, 2004

Originally posted by lgflamini
Hey, Lizz! :)

Actual personal experiences such as Lizz's (I know about Lizz's via PM)and Pug's have really made me think about EC's clinical experience requirements. I do have to agree that my own clinical experience has helped me greatly in the program. Without it, I don't think I'd be faring well at all. But I am the typical EC student (LPN-RN with clinical experience). And while I truly don't feel it's my place to judge someone's value as a future EC RN based on their previous licensure/credentials, maybe the only way to get documented evidence of how someone will fare once they're in the workforce is to have certain requirements like the ones CA and FL have mandated. At least that way, they know how many clinical hours someone has under their belt (in any discipline) before they enter a distance program. I do know EC has this policy for EMTs entering the field of nursing, but it wasn't a requirement for me as an LPN. All they needed from me was a license # and my transcripts. They had no way of knowing if I had actually been working as a nurse- just that I had an active license. And my BON placed no restrictions or requirements for clinical hrs worked in order for me to obtain my RN this way, either (and I'm receiving a BON scholarship). My previous program (a bridge program) did require documented proof of at least 1000 clinical hrs worked in order to enter their program, and this was supported by my BON. I was told by the BON that they required this for bridge program-ers to sit for the boards here. I have to say that this does make me think. You guys have made a valid point.

You got me thinking about the California situation as well. There has to be a solution, and a better way to document and demonstrate clinical experience.

If someone has been working as an LVN for ten years, and has a wide range of clinical experience, they should get credit for that. By the same token, something needs to be in place to prevent problem cases like Pug's LVN, who was fresh out of LVN school and had little experience.

After talking to Teresa and Kim, and reviewing the new requirements, it does look like the only way LVNs can document clinical hours is to go through California schools. And I do see some problems with that. For example, putting LVN's on the schools' schedule, which probably means they can't keep their current jobs and pay their bills, as Teresa mentioned.

My guess is California got fed up and said, you're going through our schools and that's it. Unfortunately, this is pretty typical of enforcement actions when there's a problem. It swings to the other extreme.

Whatever the case may be, I wonder about possible solutions and what you think they are. For example, how were your 1,000 hours of clinical time documented?

Despite my previous criticism of the program, I don't necessarily think California residents should be totally excluded from Excelsior or any other flexible work program options.

kimlpn · Jan 3, 2004

I agree LIZZ, there should be something put into place to ensure qualified Ca students who need a flexible program like this can attend...maybe they will reach an agreement--possibly like the one in Florida (where I am) that only allows LPNs to utilize this type of program. The reputation of the school and it's graduates are dependent on the nurses they put out into the workforce.

Kim

Sheri257 · Jan 3, 2004

Originally posted by kimlpn
I agree LIZZ, there should be something put into place to ensure qualified Ca students who need a flexible program like this can attend...maybe they will reach an agreement--possibly like the one in Florida (where I am) that only allows LPNs to utilize this type of program. The reputation of the school and it's graduates are dependent on the nurses they put out into the workforce.
Kim

I have a question. Does Florida have anything in place to prevent the kind of situation that Pug described? Pug said:

One EC grad I worked with in particular had not only been an LVN a short amount of time, but her LVN program had not offered very much in the way of clinical time, and her LVN job was extremely limited clinically ( it was only a glorified nursing aide position, in a well child clinic). So her education was not only limited but she was extremely over-confident and didn't ask questions. She terrified us for months until the powers that be let her go.

Just wondering if Florida has some kind of procedure that maybe California should have adopted. Like maybe you need X amount of years as an LPN, or documented clinical hours like Laura mentioned.

BBFRN, BSN, PhD · Jan 3, 2004

Originally posted by lizz

After talking to Teresa and Kim, and reviewing the new requirements, it does look like the only way LVNs can document clinical hours is to go through California schools. And I do see some problems with that. For example, putting LVN's on the schools' schedule, which probably means they can't keep their current jobs and pay their bills, as Teresa mentioned.

My guess is California got fed up and said, you're going through our schools and that's it. Unfortunately, this is pretty typical of enforcement actions when there's a problem. It swings to the other extreme.

Whatever the case may be, I wonder about possible solutions and what you think they are. For example, how were your 1,000 hours of clinical time documented?

The way I provided documented proof of clinical hrs worked was a signed verification from my employer, which I had to turn in to the school when I was entering the bridge program. My employer of course had records of my hrs worked anyway.

Sheri257 · Jan 3, 2004

Originally posted by lgflamini
The way I provided documented proof of clinical hrs worked was a signed verification from my employer, which I had to turn in to the school when I was entering the bridge program. My employer of course had records of my hrs worked anyway.

Besides the school issue, the California requirements also mention the need for documented clinical time in "advanced medical surgical nursing, psychiatric nursing and geriatrics."

Just wondering how feasible that would be for someone like yourself, or other working LPNs/LVNs. Can an employer provide documentation on supervision for those areas? Or, is that not feasible?

I'm glad we've found some middle ground here. I really am curious about possible solutions.

BBFRN, BSN, PhD · Jan 3, 2004

Originally posted by lizz
Besides the school issue, the California requirements also mention the need for documented clinical time in "advanced medical surgical nursing, psychiatric nursing and geriatrics."

Just wondering how feasible that would be for someone like yourself, or other working LPNs/LVNs. Can an employer provide documentation on supervision for those areas? Or, is that not feasible?

I'm glad we've found some middle ground here. I really am curious about possible solutions.

Well, if you're already an LPN, it will be assumed that you are working under the supervision of an RN, because that's one of the bases of our scope of practice. The form that I had to turn in had areas to be filled in describing the # of hrs I had worked, the type of floor it was, and a place for my manager to verify that I was a quality employee with the knowlege to safely practice nursing as an LPN. I also had to provide my LPN license #. This is very feasible, I think, because 1000 hrs translates into about 6 months full time clinical experience (I had way more than this). This was a requirement for me to get into a bridge program here in KY, and that was the standard at the time (a year ago). And it still isn't limited to med/surg, etc. LPNs. There were a lot of LPNs from nursing homes there as well. I had no problems providing this info to the institution. But, I do have to say that I didn't have to do all this for EC. And my BON didn't ask me for verification of hrs worked when I contacted then to make sure I would be able to obtain RN licensure through EC. I have no idea why, really, since they DID require it when I was in the bridge program that had more clinical components required to graduate.

On another side of the coin, one of my colleagues who just gradutated from a bridge program complains that she didn't learn a thing in her entire program, and she has finished before me (we started at the same time). She's scared about the boards, and I feel well prepared. She says she had no Peds, Respiratory, Pharm. (beyond what we both already had in LPN school) or a few other components that I have had a lot of in my distance program, and that she really felt she needed. Maybe the BON has already compared the curiculuum of these bridge programs with EC's, and have decided that EC has a broader educational base? I don't know, but I'm not going to question them on this, because I am very close to taking the boards, I feel well prepared, and I certainly don't want to chop my nose off to spite my face .

Sheri257 · Jan 3, 2004

This is a point of information more than anything else, but I went back and looked at the BORN minutes where Excelsior's clinical proposals were discussed.

http://www.rn.ca.gov/pdf/brdmins9-03.pdf

Actually, it doesn't look like Excelsior could meet any of the state's requirements. It looks like a bunch of regulations would have to be changed to allow the program.

Apparently the state hadn't reviewed the program in over 15 years. And a lot of these regulations may have been adopted during that time.

A lot of political heavy weights were pushing for this. Three major nursing organizations and Kaiser, which is probably how it got back on the agenda.

I'm sure it didn't help when they proposed only 135-140 elective, not mandatory, clinical hours, as well as only med-surg. But my guess is they were probably doomed as soon as the board looked at it, just because of the regulations.

Maybe the board figured they couldn't cut any slack for just one school, and tell the other schools they still had to follow all the requirements. And I know any attempt to change this many regulations would have been a formidable task.