I want to know what nurses think about socialized medicine. - page 7

I'm doing a report on Socialized medicine and dont know much about how people feel about it as I live in Idaho.What are any of you Canadian nurses feelings about it? Good or Bad?... Read More

  1. by   wowza
    Quote from ghillbert

    It is a basic human right to have access to healthcare regardless of income.


    People seem to throw this idea around without any support. I see gaping holes in the argument for health care as a basic human right. How would you argue that it is a basic human right?



    I would argue it is not a right in the following way:
    First it requires that someone else provide it. You have no right over my labors unless I agree to provide them for you. This idea relies both on rights of liberty and property which I don't think anyone would argue are basic rights. A true right would not infringe upon another right. Since a right to health care would infringe upon people's right to liberty and property, health care cannot be a right.

    Second a basic human right is innate, meaning that from birth you have these rights and they are unchanging. During times when there was no health care, no doctors, no healers there was no "right" to health care because it was a non-entity- there was no such thing as health care yet. Being innate, these basic human rights dont change overtime so health care cannot be one of these basic human rights.

    Furthermore, basic rights require no system to create them but are there from birth. Liberty, property, and life- the most commonly cited basic human rights are there from birth and require no system to provide these things. You dont need someone to give you life. It is inherent in your being. Heath care however requires a system to provide it. It is not innate so again, it is not a right.
  2. by   lindarn
    Quote from saarein
    Just as I posted before, if one disagrees with the majority then that one person is made to feel as if they have three heads or are Attilla the Hun. Yes, I am in the healthcare industry and no I don't think one of the rights of a human being is healthcare. I don't think the Constitution or the Declaration of Independence points out that one of my rights is healthcare. I have the right for the pursuit of happiness and taking out 44% of my husband's and mine income is not a pursuit of my happiness. I don't understand how anyone could possibly not think that our taxes will go up with this estimated trillion dollar business our government is thinking about going into and will have to grow another teet on that old sow for everyone to step up to the trough to partake. I also think that Marx had another idea in that statement. I'm sure he meant that everyone should be equal and that equality means that the government takes from those who can afford to give to those who can't afford. I'm all for helping those who can't help themselves, but not at the expense of those of us who try to go by the rules and still cannot get ahead. No, I don't want anyone to suffer and how dare you imply that I would like that!! And the attitudes I was brought up with were wonderful. I was taught rsponsibility, respect, honesty, and question everything. I respectfully disagree with you about everyone who has had UHC loving it. I work with a few people who have come from those countries and they didn't like it and saw lots of flaws in it. Sure, they don't like our system, either, and neither do I. I'm a capitalist and feel that we need to add more competition for the insurance companies, and our government should not be in the insurance business. We have had a lot of changes since January 20th, and all the changes have cost us, our children, and our grandchildren a lot of money, so do we need to push this through at the speed of light, too? I'm sorry that I cannot jump into step with everyone else on this post and maybe I should just unsubscribe to "allnurses.com" altogether. I don't want to argue and bicker about this and yes, I do not think we can resolve this and I know we will not do it if those of us who disagree continually get reprimanded and accused of not being compassionate. That makes us dig our heels in all the more!
    I could be mistaken, but I don't think that the Constitution offers us, "socilized public education", or, "socialized police departments", etc. The Constitution (and our laws), were written to allow for growth and change, as our society changes. I do not believe that our Founding Fathers would want the citizens of this country to do without necessary medical care, or have to declare bankruptcy, due to medical bills.

    Perhaps not everyone who has Universal Health Care loves it, or may feel the need to come to the US to have medical care/procedures, provided, but I also believe that not one of them would chose to have our mess of a health care system over their univeral health care.

    I also bet that not one of the individuals who have Universal Health Care, and chooses to come to the US for health care, would bother to tell you, that the reasons that they have the money to be able to afford to come to the US for health care. If they choose to use US Health Care, they can afford it because they have not been saddled their entire lives with out of control costs of private health care, and the co pays, that left over costs not covered by their precious private health care.

    Other countries have more disposable income than the US because they are not paying the exhorbitant costs for the "privelige" to have Health Insurance, which, by the way, is NOT Health Care. JMHO and my NY $0.02.

    Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN
    Spokane, Washington
  3. by   HM2VikingRN
    [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbWaYKeW4gU [/YOUTUBE]
  4. by   HM2VikingRN
    We do owe something to each other as members of a society.

    One of the things that strikes me is that there have been signs of care-giving and healing found in most of the oldest excavations of our ancestors. Healing and care-giving have been given to each other by our ancestors from the earliest times. That in and of itself establishes a basic innate recognition of a human right to health care that predates any conception of organized societies.
  5. by   HM2VikingRN
    The Second Bill of Rights:

    The Second Bill of Rights was a proposal made by United States President Franklin D. Roosevelt during his State of the Union Address on January 11, 1944 to suggest that the nation had come to recognize, and should now implement, a second bill of rights. Roosevelt did not argue for any change to the United States Constitution; he argued that the second bill of rights was to be implemented politically, not by federal judges. Roosevelt's stated justification was that the "political rights" guaranteed by the Constitution and the Bill of Rights had "proved inadequate to assure us equality in the pursuit of happiness." Roosevelt's remedy was to create an "economic bill of rights" which would guarantee:
    A job with a living wage
    Freedom from unfair competition and monopolies
    Homeownership
    Medical care
    Education
    Recreation
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Bill_of_Rights
  6. by   wowza
    Quote from lindarn
    I do not believe that our Founding Fathers would want the citizens of this country to do without necessary medical care, or have to declare bankruptcy, due to medical bills.
    Considering most of our founding fathers were vehemently opposed to a national bank, I do not think our founding fathers would be on board with a gov't run or gov't sanctioned health system.
  7. by   GCTMT
    I'd like to ask a simple question that I think has been overlooked, who cares what our Founders would or would not have wanted? First of all, anyone who claims they would be on "your side" in this debate is doing them a disservice, the fact is, no one can say with accuracy what they would or would not do in this situation and secondly, who cares? They're dead. John Adams and Thomas Jefferson died on July 4th 1825 and they were the last of the Founders. That's 16 years shy of two-hundred years that they have all been dead. So, when we examine whether or not health-care is a right, what's the point in offering our interpretation of peoples ideas from 200 years ago? It was a completely different world.

    And secondly, the Constitution isn't the Holy Grail, it's not perfect and while I agree that it never explicitly says that health care is a right, I really don't care if it says that or not. I don't form my opinions on a document that was written over 220 years ago.
  8. by   leslie :-D
    Quote from GCTMT
    And secondly, the Constitution isn't the Holy Grail, it's not perfect and while I agree that it never explicitly says that health care is a right, I really don't care if it says that or not. I don't form my opinions on a document that was written over 220 years ago.
    i understand what you're saying, but our constitution is the foundation of every type of law...
    although it has been subject to wide interpretation.
    whatever isn't spelled out, folks end up deferring to the 9th and 10th amendments, where all the fun begins.

    leslie
  9. by   HM2VikingRN
    Jefferson actually supported publicly funded health care for merchant mariners....Its not much of a leap to extend that support as societal circumstances have changed to support for a form of public health care for all Americans.
  10. by   saarein
    Quote from HM2Viking
    We do owe something to each other as members of a society.

    One of the things that strikes me is that there have been signs of care-giving and healing found in most of the oldest excavations of our ancestors. Healing and care-giving have been given to each other by our ancestors from the earliest times. That in and of itself establishes a basic innate recognition of a human right to health care that predates any conception of organized societies.
    Your basic innate recognition of a human right to healthcare would be the compassion of healing and care-giving, not robbing from me and giving to others who have had the chance to prosper and pull themselves up by the bootstraps the way I learned to do. I grew up in a very poor neighborhood and was among those who were looked upon as being dirt poor, but my father decided that his children were not going to be labeled the same way he had been. I was the first in my family (both sides) to graduate from college. I find it very discouraging when those in power and some of us not in power to lower all the standards so those who are "less fortunate" may be able to be taken care of. Well, it is my experience that if there are no expectations, you will not go that extra mile to prove that you are able to. I don't mind helping, I give to my church and also give on a regular basis to four charities. I have heard over the years people stating that a person can be one heartbeat away from being homeless(homeless, by the way, does not always mean one is out on the street or sleeping in cars; it can mean you just don't have a place of your own. You could be living with relatives or friends). I beg to differ with them, I will not be homeless. My fathers display of hard work (working 2 jobs all his life) and his wanting to give his children a future has been enough for me to know that the human spirit is stronger than those in power want us to believe. Times have changed and I'm sure there are plenty of people who don't remember when there wasn't a lot of free things. Those were hard times, I certainly remember, but my family got through it. I'm sorry if I have been rambling on and on, but I just don't understand the mind-set of people who will not or think they cannot take care of their own.
  11. by   wowza
    Quote from HM2Viking
    Jefferson actually supported publicly funded health care for merchant mariners....Its not much of a leap to extend that support as societal circumstances have changed to support for a form of public health care for all Americans.
    It is a bit of a leap. He supported a hospital for those sailors who were turned away by local physicians. Hardly the same kind of bureaucratic, wide sweeping, gov't controlled program we are talking about. Considering his views would be considered libertarian in almost all other regards I don't think you can say Jefferson would be on board. Here are a few classic Jefferson quotes:


    "Was the government to prescribe to us our medicine and diet, our bodies would be in such keeping as our souls are now." ~TJ

    "A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government
    ." ~TJ

    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."
    ~TJ
    Last edit by wowza on Jun 22, '09
  12. by   HM2VikingRN
    your basic innate recognition of a human right to healthcare would be the compassion of healing and care-giving, not robbing from me and giving to others who have had the chance to prosper and pull themselves up by the bootstraps the way i learned to do.
    1. you didn't make it on your own. others paid and subsidized the public school you attended. this isn't meant to be harsh. it is a simple statement that you received indirect help from others which was tax funded.

    i grew up in a very poor neighborhood and was among those who were looked upon as being dirt poor, but my father decided that his children were not going to be labeled the same way he had been. i was the first in my family (both sides) to graduate from college.

    2. obviously your father had a role in your success. my great grandfather was a homesteader in sd. he was a hs graduate in norway but unable to inherit land. he made sure that his children were able to support themselves by sending his daughters to nursing school. he was given land as a homesteader to prove up.


    i find it very discouraging when those in power and some of us not in power to lower all the standards so those who are "less fortunate" may be able to be taken care of. well, it is my experience that if there are no expectations, you will not go that extra mile to prove that you are able to.

    3. not one person is calling for a lowering of standards or "free things." rather its to make sure that all people have access to affordable health care and to lower the costs of health care for all. undoubtedly we have a responsibility to care and provide for our families but there are responsibilities that are collectively shared. (education, public safety, education etc.) none of us makes it solely on our own.
  13. by   HM2VikingRN
    "as societal circumstances have changed..." He also founded the University of Virginia..

    My point is that he was an experimenter and believed in the ability of people to modify their government in response to the challenges posed by changes in society and the economy....

    Jefferson is like Tom Paine thinkers from both the left and right look to him for quotations to support their point of view...

close