I want to know what nurses think about socialized medicine.

allnurses Guide · Jun 21, 2009

here's the bottom line, and in my opinion, really the only thing you need to say about this topic.
i do not know one single person who comes from a country with universal healthcare who would trade it for the us system.
there are pros and cons as with everything in life, but overall, the vast majority of people have better access to care. doctors make plenty of money. yes, we pay taxes/tax levy, but we don't have "copay", "out of pocket", "deductible" etc et cetc... i am definitely worse off in terms of my income/tax/healthcare costs in the us than in australia.
it is a basic human right to have access to healthcare regardless of income.

just because you don't know one single person does not mean there are not some. i've seen many many people who are frustrated with the system in canada and come to the us for care.

steph

saarein · Jun 21, 2009

Just as I posted before, if one disagrees with the majority then that one person is made to feel as if they have three heads or are Attilla the Hun. Yes, I am in the healthcare industry and no I don't think one of the rights of a human being is healthcare. I don't think the Constitution or the Declaration of Independence points out that one of my rights is healthcare. I have the right for the pursuit of happiness and taking out 44% of my husband's and mine income is not a pursuit of my happiness. I don't understand how anyone could possibly not think that our taxes will go up with this estimated trillion dollar business our government is thinking about going into and will have to grow another teet on that old sow for everyone to step up to the trough to partake. I also think that Marx had another idea in that statement. I'm sure he meant that everyone should be equal and that equality means that the government takes from those who can afford to give to those who can't afford. I'm all for helping those who can't help themselves, but not at the expense of those of us who try to go by the rules and still cannot get ahead. No, I don't want anyone to suffer and how dare you imply that I would like that!! And the attitudes I was brought up with were wonderful. I was taught rsponsibility, respect, honesty, and question everything. I respectfully disagree with you about everyone who has had UHC loving it. I work with a few people who have come from those countries and they didn't like it and saw lots of flaws in it. Sure, they don't like our system, either, and neither do I. I'm a capitalist and feel that we need to add more competition for the insurance companies, and our government should not be in the insurance business. We have had a lot of changes since January 20th, and all the changes have cost us, our children, and our grandchildren a lot of money, so do we need to push this through at the speed of light, too? I'm sorry that I cannot jump into step with everyone else on this post and maybe I should just unsubscribe to "allnurses.com" altogether. I don't want to argue and bicker about this and yes, I do not think we can resolve this and I know we will not do it if those of us who disagree continually get reprimanded and accused of not being compassionate. That makes us dig our heels in all the more!

Long Term Care Columnist / Guide · Jun 21, 2009

Thank you so much for saying what had to be said! I try not to write too many replies because of my politics, which do lean to the right. Every time I have replied to a touchy subject I feel I get attacked by those who would want to stiffle my opinion. If by chance I want to take my opinion further I am made to feel guilty because either, quoting from someone from this thread the other day, "I'm either taking care of me and mine", or "I don't care about anyone else". I do care about people and how they receive healthcare. For goodness sakes I am a nurse! I do wish we could have intelligent conversations without resorting to name calling or accusatory language. This is a very emotionally charged subject and we, as nurses, know this first hand. But there is something else we must think about and that is not to jump to conclusions about other people's freedom of speech and freedom of opinions. We all have different areas of nursing that we are specialists in. Mine is pediatrics. I have been a school nurse for 10 years and have never seen a child turned away from medical care. In fact, I have begged parents to take their children to the doctor. If they do not have private insurance, they usually have Medicaid or there are several free clinics in my county they can take them to. But I still have to beg these parents to take them even to the free clinics. The only time I have seen a child not being able to receive healthcare is when an irresponsible parent will not take them and get the free healthcare. I take offense to anyone who states that there are some of us who have the mindset of taking care of our own first and not think twice about those who do not have what we may have. As a responsible human being and mother, yes I think of mine first, that's what I am supposed to do. No one else needs to take care of me or mine, that's my job. What a novel idea!

And what a great post!! :yeah:

Although I am a moderate/conservative who happens to favor a single-payer health care system (not necessarily government-run, however), I salute you for your articulate statement. It demonstrates a point of view that all too often gets lost in the heat of battling ideologies: it's not about "I got mine, and to hell with you". Thank you for reminding us all of this truth.

allnurses Guide · Jun 21, 2009

Just as I posted before, if one disagrees with the majority then that one person is made to feel as if they have three heads or are Attilla the Hun. Yes, I am in the healthcare industry and no I don't think one of the rights of a human being is healthcare. I don't think the Constitution or the Declaration of Independence points out that one of my rights is healthcare. I have the right for the pursuit of happiness and taking out 44% of my husband's and mine income is not a pursuit of my happiness. I don't understand how anyone could possibly not think that our taxes will go up with this estimated trillion dollar business our government is thinking about going into and will have to grow another teet on that old sow for everyone to step up to the trough to partake. I also think that Marx had another idea in that statement. I'm sure he meant that everyone should be equal and that equality means that the government takes from those who can afford to give to those who can't afford. I'm all for helping those who can't help themselves, but not at the expense of those of us who try to go by the rules and still cannot get ahead. No, I don't want anyone to suffer and how dare you imply that I would like that!! And the attitudes I was brought up with were wonderful. I was taught rsponsibility, respect, honesty, and question everything. I respectfully disagree with you about everyone who has had UHC loving it. I work with a few people who have come from those countries and they didn't like it and saw lots of flaws in it. Sure, they don't like our system, either, and neither do I. I'm a capitalist and feel that we need to add more competition for the insurance companies, and our government should not be in the insurance business. We have had a lot of changes since January 20th, and all the changes have cost us, our children, and our grandchildren a lot of money, so do we need to push this through at the speed of light, too? I'm sorry that I cannot jump into step with everyone else on this post and maybe I should just unsubscribe to "allnurses.com" altogether. I don't want to argue and bicker about this and yes, I do not think we can resolve this and I know we will not do it if those of us who disagree continually get reprimanded and accused of not being compassionate. That makes us dig our heels in all the more!

Don't unsubscribe - we need you. :up:

steph

allnurses Guide · Jun 21, 2009

Just as I posted before, if one disagrees with the majority then that one person is made to feel as if they have three heads or are Attilla the Hun. Yes, I am in the healthcare industry and no I don't think one of the rights of a human being is healthcare. I don't think the Constitution or the Declaration of Independence points out that one of my rights is healthcare. I have the right for the pursuit of happiness and taking out 44% of my husband's and mine income is not a pursuit of my happiness.

See, I'm not American. I don't understand how "the pursuit of happiness" is even possible without adequate healthcare. I am not saying you're wrong - I'm just saying that it's incomprehensible to me.

I don't understand how anyone could possibly not think that our taxes will go up

I didn't see a single post suggesting that. Of course the taxes will go up. However the payoff is that you won't have all the other healthcare costs to offset.

And the attitudes I was brought up with were wonderful. I was taught rsponsibility, respect, honesty, and question everything.

Apparently you misunderstand me. I wasn't suggesting you were brought up with "not wonderful" attitudes. Merely that a different perspective obviously permeates, between places with UHC and the US. One isn't better than the other, they are different. They make it impossible for you to agree with my opinion, and impossible for me to agree with your opinion.

I respectfully disagree with you about everyone who has had UHC loving it. I work with a few people who have come from those countries and they didn't like it and saw lots of flaws in it. Sure, they don't like our system, either, and neither do I.

I certainly see flaws in my country's healthcare system. I don't think I ever said it was a panacea, nor did I say that everyone "loves" it. I said they wouldn't trade it.

I'm sure some people don't want to wait and may seek care in the US - lucky them, if they can afford it. This is taken care of in my country's system because people that want to do the same can take out additional private insurance to skip the lines etc.

Of course there are pros and cons to everything. It's just that the pros are greater than the cons (in my opinion). It is better than the US system - better outcomes and less cost. That is inarguable fact.

HM2VikingRN, RN · Jun 21, 2009

saarein,

i certainly did not attack you in any way shape or form. i appreciate your concerns and ideas and my responses are usually driven by data and research.

a universal public system would be financed in the following way: the public funds already funneled to medicare and medicaid would be retained. the difference, or the gap between current public funding and what we would need for a universal health care system, would be financed by a payroll tax on employers (about 7%) and an income tax on individuals (about 2%). the payroll tax would replace all other employer expenses for employees’ health care, which would be eliminated. the income tax would take the place of all current insurance premiums, co-pays, deductibles, and other out-of-pocket payments. for the vast majority of people, a 2% income tax is less than what they now pay for insurance premiums and out-of-pocket payments such as co-pays and deductibles, particularly if a family member has a serious illness. it is also a fair and sustainable contribution.

http://www.pnhp.org/facts/singlepayer_faq.php#raise_taxes

wowza · Jun 21, 2009

It is a basic human right to have access to healthcare regardless of income.

People seem to throw this idea around without any support. I see gaping holes in the argument for health care as a basic human right. How would you argue that it is a basic human right?

I would argue it is not a right in the following way:

First it requires that someone else provide it. You have no right over my labors unless I agree to provide them for you. This idea relies both on rights of liberty and property which I don't think anyone would argue are basic rights. A true right would not infringe upon another right. Since a right to health care would infringe upon people's right to liberty and property, health care cannot be a right.

Second a basic human right is innate, meaning that from birth you have these rights and they are unchanging. During times when there was no health care, no doctors, no healers there was no "right" to health care because it was a non-entity- there was no such thing as health care yet. Being innate, these basic human rights dont change overtime so health care cannot be one of these basic human rights.

Furthermore, basic rights require no system to create them but are there from birth. Liberty, property, and life- the most commonly cited basic human rights are there from birth and require no system to provide these things. You dont need someone to give you life. It is inherent in your being. Heath care however requires a system to provide it. It is not innate so again, it is not a right.

lindarn · Jun 21, 2009

Just as I posted before, if one disagrees with the majority then that one person is made to feel as if they have three heads or are Attilla the Hun. Yes, I am in the healthcare industry and no I don't think one of the rights of a human being is healthcare. I don't think the Constitution or the Declaration of Independence points out that one of my rights is healthcare. I have the right for the pursuit of happiness and taking out 44% of my husband's and mine income is not a pursuit of my happiness. I don't understand how anyone could possibly not think that our taxes will go up with this estimated trillion dollar business our government is thinking about going into and will have to grow another teet on that old sow for everyone to step up to the trough to partake. I also think that Marx had another idea in that statement. I'm sure he meant that everyone should be equal and that equality means that the government takes from those who can afford to give to those who can't afford. I'm all for helping those who can't help themselves, but not at the expense of those of us who try to go by the rules and still cannot get ahead. No, I don't want anyone to suffer and how dare you imply that I would like that!! And the attitudes I was brought up with were wonderful. I was taught rsponsibility, respect, honesty, and question everything. I respectfully disagree with you about everyone who has had UHC loving it. I work with a few people who have come from those countries and they didn't like it and saw lots of flaws in it. Sure, they don't like our system, either, and neither do I. I'm a capitalist and feel that we need to add more competition for the insurance companies, and our government should not be in the insurance business. We have had a lot of changes since January 20th, and all the changes have cost us, our children, and our grandchildren a lot of money, so do we need to push this through at the speed of light, too? I'm sorry that I cannot jump into step with everyone else on this post and maybe I should just unsubscribe to "allnurses.com" altogether. I don't want to argue and bicker about this and yes, I do not think we can resolve this and I know we will not do it if those of us who disagree continually get reprimanded and accused of not being compassionate. That makes us dig our heels in all the more!

I could be mistaken, but I don't think that the Constitution offers us, "socilized public education", or, "socialized police departments", etc. The Constitution (and our laws), were written to allow for growth and change, as our society changes. I do not believe that our Founding Fathers would want the citizens of this country to do without necessary medical care, or have to declare bankruptcy, due to medical bills.

Perhaps not everyone who has Universal Health Care loves it, or may feel the need to come to the US to have medical care/procedures, provided, but I also believe that not one of them would chose to have our mess of a health care system over their univeral health care.

I also bet that not one of the individuals who have Universal Health Care, and chooses to come to the US for health care, would bother to tell you, that the reasons that they have the money to be able to afford to come to the US for health care. If they choose to use US Health Care, they can afford it because they have not been saddled their entire lives with out of control costs of private health care, and the co pays, that left over costs not covered by their precious private health care.

Other countries have more disposable income than the US because they are not paying the exhorbitant costs for the "privelige" to have Health Insurance, which, by the way, is NOT Health Care. JMHO and my NY $0.02.

Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN

Spokane, Washington

HM2VikingRN, RN · Jun 21, 2009

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HM2VikingRN, RN · Jun 21, 2009

We do owe something to each other as members of a society.

One of the things that strikes me is that there have been signs of care-giving and healing found in most of the oldest excavations of our ancestors. Healing and care-giving have been given to each other by our ancestors from the earliest times. That in and of itself establishes a basic innate recognition of a human right to health care that predates any conception of organized societies.

HM2VikingRN, RN · Jun 21, 2009

The Second Bill of Rights:

The Second Bill of Rights was a proposal made by United States President Franklin D. Roosevelt during his State of the Union Address on January 11, 1944 to suggest that the nation had come to recognize, and should now implement, a second bill of rights. Roosevelt did not argue for any change to the United States Constitution; he argued that the second bill of rights was to be implemented politically, not by federal judges. Roosevelt's stated justification was that the "political rights" guaranteed by the Constitution and the Bill of Rights had "proved inadequate to assure us equality in the pursuit of happiness." Roosevelt's remedy was to create an "economic bill of rights" which would guarantee:
A job with a living wage
Freedom from unfair competition and monopolies
Homeownership
Medical care
Education
Recreation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Bill_of_Rights

wowza · Jun 22, 2009

I do not believe that our Founding Fathers would want the citizens of this country to do without necessary medical care, or have to declare bankruptcy, due to medical bills.

Considering most of our founding fathers were vehemently opposed to a national bank, I do not think our founding fathers would be on board with a gov't run or gov't sanctioned health system.