We had this huge discussion at work today, and i thought i'd get your opinions.
The statement was this: "We have to many people becoming nurses for the money. Its not like it used to be, where a nurse chose to be a nurse because they liked helping people. Its all about the money,."
We were talking about the increased patient complaints, and an older nurse stated the above and thats the reason for increased patient complaints.
My take on it is that suffering pain as Jesus did on the cross is noble and purifying.
Yes, I think that's probably a good explanation...
Passage: 1 Peter 2:18-25 (RSV)
18) Servants, be submissive to your masters with all respect, not only to the kind and gentle but also to the overbearing. 19) For one is approved if, mindful of God, he endures pain while suffering unjustly. 20) For what credit is it, if when you do wrong and are beaten for it you take it patiently? But if when you do right and suffer for it you take it patiently, you have God's approval. 21) For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps. 22) He committed no sin; no guile was found on his lips. 23) When he was reviled, he did not revile in return; when he suffered, he did not threaten; but he trusted to him who judges justly. 24) He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed. 25) For you were straying like sheep, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Guardian of your souls.
My take on it is that suffering pain as Jesus did on the cross is noble and purifying.
Oh, my goodness. Never heard of that one. I don't see how pain could ever be considered noble or purifying. (Not religious either, but the things they come up with in scripture never ceases to amaze me.)
Oh, my goodness. Never heard of that one. I don't see how pain could ever be considered noble or purifying. (Not religious either, but the things they come up with in scripture never ceases to amaze me.)
You've never grown personally through suffering and trials in life? I know I have.
I TOTALLY agree with that statement. I am nursing student and in my class of about 60 students that is all you hear the majority of them talking about. I even over hear some students telling potential nursing students to do it for the money if nothing else. I think that is such crap!! Two things wind up happening from the horrible decision of "nursing for the money": 1. Our communities end up having bad nurses with terrible patient care morales because they are not enjoying the job as a nurse and 2. Those who made that choice could suffer academicly because they made a superficial choice and both their own time and money are wasted!!!! I made the decision to be a nurse because I've been a medical assistant for 7 years and I wanted to further my education. I love what I do!! It shows in my job performance and on the faces of my patients : )
Oh, my goodness. Never heard of that one. I don't see how pain could ever be considered noble or purifying. (Not religious either, but the things they come up with in scripture never ceases to amaze me.)
Well, that creaking sound you hear is the can of worms opening.
Pain, physical and emotional pain, causes stress in the physiological sense, impairing the healing process.
Our job, our role, is to advocate for the patient, relieving pain and distress. We are employed to help facilitate the healing process, or to relieve pain to the extent that the patient does not die in agony. Anything less is barbaric. We have good medications to help relieve pain and there is nothing wrong with using them.
I have worked for a Lutheran corporation, a Catholic corporation and a non-religious community hospital. The only organization that stated suffering was ennobling was the Catholic hospital. The cram-down of the 'redemtive suffering' is hypocritical and goes against my interpretation of the ethics of nursing. This Catholic corporation I worked for made far more money than the other organizations I was employed by. The hypocrisy I encountered there was intolerable.
By that, I don't mean that if a patient requested a spiritual consult I'd ignore it, or that I would ignore a passive request for help. Picking up on the subtle or unspoken need of a patient treats the whole person.
I wouldn't allow a physician to preach religious doctrine during a medical encounter, so why in the world would one allow a religious person to make medical decisions for me or my family?
I'd like to see the seperation of church and state again in the USA, please.
Specializes in Telemetry, ICU, Resource Pool, Dialysis.
I worked for a Catholic hospital, and never ONCE heard anyone there state that suffering was enobling in the context of allowing someone to suffer during the dying process or otherwise suffer needlessly. I am not Catholic, but I can see the value of the belief in helping the suffering person feel that they don't suffer alone, and that they are not suffering in vain. I don't see this belief as being an excuse to withold pain relief measures. Sometimes pain CAN'T be completely relieved - no matter how or what we try.
i responded with an excerpt from the united states conference of catholic bishops, from the [color=#cc3333]ethical and religious directives for catholic health care services, fourth edition, from the section titled issues in care for the dying
[color=#cc3333]61) patients should be kept as free of pain as possible so that they may die comfortably and with dignity, and in the place where they wish to die. since a person has the right to prepare for his or her death while fully conscious, he or she should not be deprived of consciousness without a compelling reason. medicines capable of alleviating or suppressing pain may be given to a dying person, even if this therapy may indirectly shorten the person's life so long as the intent is not to hasten death. patients experiencing suffering that cannot be alleviated should be helped to appreciate the christian understanding of redemptive suffering
[color=#cc3333]
[color=#cc3333]i'm reposting it for everyone's benefit here. i don't see anything in this statement that says we are to make pts suffer for their own good. obviously, you have emotional issues with catholicism, and are angry at some things, but some of your comments could be perceived as offensive by some who are reading them.
catholic moral and ethical theology is more complex than the media often presents it to be, if you read the link i've provided. at any rate, anti-religious rants don't belong here, on this board. you brought up the subject, and i've tried to explain it the best i can, in a charitable manner.:)
You've never grown personally through suffering and trials in life? I know I have.
Aren't we talking about end of life care? No, I don't beleive there is growth from pain at that point, but misery. There is no benefit. Pain at this point is needless. To say that there is some kind of purifying process going on because of intractable pain is hooey, but I do understand the faith based piece behind the sentiment. Everyone wants answers as to why and this is the best that there is sometimes when the pain can't be releived, it's nice to say good things are going on. But, it just isn't so, IMO.
Aren't we talking about end of life care? No, I don't beleive there is growth from pain at that point, but misery. There is no benefit. Pain at this point is needless. To say that there is some kind of purifying process going on because of intractable pain is hooey, but I do understand the faith based piece behind the sentiment. Everyone wants answers as to why and this is the best that there is sometimes when the pain can't be releived, it's nice to say good things are going on. But, it just isn't so, IMO.
Why would you publicly denigrate anothers beliefs by calling them hooey? That might easily be interpreted as being disrespectful. Stating your disagreement with a POV is one thing, but using derisive language like that really isn't constructive.
Well, that creaking sound you hear is the can of worms opening.
Pain, physical and emotional pain, causes stress in the physiological sense, impairing the healing process.
Our job, our role, is to advocate for the patient, relieving pain and distress. We are employed to help facilitate the healing process, or to relieve pain to the extent that the patient does not die in agony. Anything less is barbaric. We have good medications to help relieve pain and there is nothing wrong with using them.
I have worked for a Lutheran corporation, a Catholic corporation and a non-religious community hospital. The only organization that stated suffering was ennobling was the Catholic hospital. The cram-down of the 'redemtive suffering' is hypocritical and goes against my interpretation of the ethics of nursing. This Catholic corporation I worked for made far more money than the other organizations I was employed by. The hypocrisy I encountered there was intolerable.
By that, I don't mean that if a patient requested a spiritual consult I'd ignore it, or that I would ignore a passive request for help. Picking up on the subtle or unspoken need of a patient treats the whole person.
I wouldn't allow a physician to preach religious doctrine during a medical encounter, so why in the world would one allow a religious person to make medical decisions for me or my family?
I'd like to see the seperation of church and state again in the USA, please.
I agree with your post regarding our true role and while I have not witnessed the type of hypocrisy in Catholic hospitals here, I can imagine it happens in some orgainizations. There no reason why "redemptive suffering" should play any part in modern medicine anywhere. How barabaric. And, yes...church and state separation issues have reached a critical point, but keeping with the topic at hand, I won't go there either.
Why would you publicly denigrate anothers beliefs by calling them hooey? That might easily be interpreted as being disrespectful. Stating your disagreement with a POV is one thing, but using derisive language like that really isn't constructive.
Nobody should feel denigrated by my expressing my personal feelings.My beliefs are based partly upon my own experiences with intractable pain near death. I watched my mother die of cancer and nobody can tell me there was anything of a purifying nature going on there. Belief systems and opinions are varied. All are valid. I was responding to the bent that Stitchie was eluding to...that these beliefs were pushed upon those she cared for at the hospital where she worked. I have huge a problem with that.
Mystery5
475 Posts
Yes, I think that's probably a good explanation...
Passage: 1 Peter 2:18-25 (RSV)
18) Servants, be submissive to your masters with all respect, not only to the kind and gentle but also to the overbearing. 19) For one is approved if, mindful of God, he endures pain while suffering unjustly. 20) For what credit is it, if when you do wrong and are beaten for it you take it patiently? But if when you do right and suffer for it you take it patiently, you have God's approval. 21) For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps. 22) He committed no sin; no guile was found on his lips. 23) When he was reviled, he did not revile in return; when he suffered, he did not threaten; but he trusted to him who judges justly. 24) He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed. 25) For you were straying like sheep, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Guardian of your souls.