We had this huge discussion at work today, and i thought i'd get your opinions.
The statement was this: "We have to many people becoming nurses for the money. Its not like it used to be, where a nurse chose to be a nurse because they liked helping people. Its all about the money,."
We were talking about the increased patient complaints, and an older nurse stated the above and thats the reason for increased patient complaints.
Specializes in Telemetry, ICU, Resource Pool, Dialysis.
people, people, people....
I think we're trying to make this too cut and dry... Look at it this way, if you were thinking of going to school because you needed a college education to make a decent wage - you would look for a profession that is stable and in demand, flexible, infinitely varied, has the potential for advancement, etc... Right? OK. What if you hated people? What if you had no compassion for anybody? What if you didn't care about ethics? What if you didn't believe in scientific principles? What if you had no aptitude for science at all?
Would you really choose nursing? Would you even make it through school? Would you be willing to wait around for a year sometimes just to get into school? Would you be willing to jump through all the hoops necessary? Would you make it through your first year? I'm not sure you would.
What I'm saying is...people DO go into nursing for many different reasons. A good wage, flexible schedule is probably the most popular. But I truly do think that most people in nursing DO care about something, or at least did at one time. People, science, healthcare, whatever. I just don't think you'd make it very far if you didn't.
I'm in it partly because of the money. But if I hated the other aspects of my job, I wouldn't continue. I would go and get a business degree, or human resources degree, or some other degree that would get me a paycheck. We can't slam everybody who says they chose nursing for monetary/financial reasons, as long as they do their job well.
I hope I made at least some sense. And comparing us to doctors is not fair. Considering doctor salaries are about 10 times nurses salaries, it's no wonder they are willing to put up with 8 years plus of school. How many doctors do you think there would be if they got paid 30$/hour?
Longer education does not equal better nurses. Anybody who seriously advocates that ignores the anecdotal evidence all around them, if not the documented evidence that ADN nurses are better trained clinically.
I once knew a BSN who, I kid you not, taped an emesis basin to the elbow of a leaking Antecub PIV and told the patient to call her when it was full so she could empty it. This was a first hand experience, as I cleaned up that mess.
Another BSN gave the 100 lb lady 75mg Phenergan IV cause, well, it looked like a 7 not a 2. (I'll admit that it did. HOWEVER. 75mg and 100lb lady, let me think, think, think.) -- 36 hours later, the lady came out of it.
Knew another BSN nurse that saw other nurses prime blood tubing and so that's what she did, except, she primed all the blood into the liter of NS. And then huffed and told me that she'd seen it done that way and maybe it was ME that didn't know what I was talking about. (the kicker - the patient was a dying doc that I really like - 1 of the true great good guys.)
Nursing is on the job training - and no amount of complaining that 60% of your co-workers aren't worthy of you will change that. ALL you BSN minimums keep saying that we need to unite but it is YOU that are being divisive. Which is nonsensical to me because you are advocating a losing position - BSN only will never happen!!!!!! (let me think back to my bach degree, oh yes, economics 101 --- hmmm: forces drive to equilibrium -- which means it's an uphill battle to make a scarce product more scarce.) No nurse actively advocating BSN only has a right to complain about why nurses can't unite. Hint: YOU ARE WHY.
Specializes in Telemetry, ICU, Resource Pool, Dialysis.
Longer education does not equal better nurses. Anybody who seriously advocates that ignores the anecdotal evidence all around them, if not the documented evidence that ADN nurses are better trained clinically.
I once knew a BSN who, I kid you not, taped an emesis basin to the elbow of a leaking Antecub PIV and told the patient to call her when it was full so she could empty it. This was a first hand experience, as I cleaned up that mess.
Another BSN gave the 100 lb lady 75mg Phenergan IV cause, well, it looked like a 7 not a 2. (I'll admit that it did. HOWEVER. 75mg and 100lb lady, let me think, think, think.) -- 36 hours later, the lady came out of it.
Knew another BSN nurse that saw other nurses prime blood tubing and so that's what she did, except, she primed all the blood into the liter of NS. And then huffed and told me that she'd seen it done that way and maybe it was ME that didn't know what I was talking about. (the kicker - the patient was a dying doc that I really like - 1 of the true great good guys.)
Nursing is on the job training - and no amount of complaining that 60% of your co-workers aren't worthy of you will change that. ALL you BSN minimums keep saying that we need to unite but it is YOU that are being divisive. Which is nonsensical to me because you are advocating a losing position - BSN only will never happen!!!!!! (let me think back to my bach degree, oh yes, economics 101 --- hmmm: forces drive to equilibrium -- which means it's an uphill battle to make a scarce product more scarce.) No nurse actively advocating BSN only has a right to complain about why nurses can't unite. Hint: YOU ARE WHY.
~faith.
OMG - PLEASE do not derail this thread with the ADN/BSN thing. Statements like you have made here are bad, bad, bad. Not a good thing here.
I What I'm saying is...people DO go into nursing for many different reasons. A good wage, flexible schedule is probably the most popular. But I truly do think that most people in nursing DO care about something, or at least did at one time. People, science, healthcare, whatever. I just don't think you'd make it very far if you didn't.
I think that's the general consensus so far from what I've seen.
Entry level BSN is probably a fine idea in theory but it will never work in reality. 1:1 patient ratios and $70/hr sound like a fine idea to me, also. But none of those ideas can or will pass an economics test (at least not in the near term). BSN-only violates basic laws of economics. There's a reason why this argument has been merely theoretical for going on 40 yrs.
That being the case (and it is), the argument is moot (and way over-hashed, I know). Except that it's consequences aren't.
By advocating that a BSN nurse is the better idea, you are putting down all the ADNs that you work with. Yes you are. Yes. Doesn't matter if that's not your intent, it is the result.
Most BSN-only advocates say it's a matter or respect. Except for you to say that your co-workers aren't worthy of the respect you believe yourself to be worthy of is, well dis-respectful by definition. (A test for BSN nurses: refer to yourself as a 'technical' nurse for 24 hrs. Refer to all your ADN co-workers as 'professional' nurses for 24 hrs. Wear it and see how it feels).
It's divisive. What I don't understand is why THIS is the hill that so many of us think nurses should die on.
Specializes in Telemetry, ICU, Resource Pool, Dialysis.
I want to clarify:
Entry level BSN is probably a fine idea in theory but it will never work in reality. 1:1 patient ratios and $70/hr sound like a fine idea to me, also. But none of those ideas can or will pass an economics test (at least not in the near term). BSN-only violates basic laws of economics. There's a reason why this argument has been merely theoretical for going on 40 yrs.
That being the case (and it is), the argument is moot (and way over-hashed, I know). Except that it's consequences aren't.
By advocating that a BSN nurse is the better idea, you are putting down all the ADNs that you work with. Yes you are. Yes. Doesn't matter if that's not your intent, it is the result.
Most BSN-only advocates say it's a matter or respect. Except for you to say that your co-workers aren't worthy of the respect you believe yourself to be worthy of is, well dis-respectful by definition. (A test for BSN nurses: refer to yourself as a 'technical' nurse for 24 hrs. Refer to all your ADN co-workers as 'professional' nurses for 24 hrs. Wear it and see how it feels).
It's divisive. What I don't understand is why THIS is the hill that so many of us think nurses should die on.
~faith.
But this thread isn't about nursing education. Nothing was said up until now about different nursing degrees.
Regarding the BSN/ADN thing, I've never even heard it discussed in the workplace in my 12 years of nursing. It's a non-issue among the ranks. I only see it talked about in nursing journals occasionally. What's all the fuss about?
If one of my daughters wanted to go into nursing, I would say, go for the BSN right away. I have an ADN and it took 3 1/2 years to get the prereqs and nrsg school done. So why not go an extra bit of time and get a BSN?:)
Regarding the BSN/ADN thing, I've never even heard it discussed in the workplace in my 12 years of nursing. It's a non-issue among the ranks. I only see it talked about in nursing journals occasionally. What's all the fuss about?
If one of my daughters wanted to go into nursing, I would say, go for the BSN right away. I have an ADN and it took 3 1/2 years to get the prereqs and nrsg school done. So why not go an extra bit of time and get a BSN?:)
I agree, I don't here it being discussed. Maybe on a bulletin board people express themselves differently. But apparently it is an issue, otherwise we wouldn't agrue about it so much. :rotfl:
And it's totally ridiculous to take one incident about one person with a BSN and have it prove something. Really illogical and unscientific. That's a similar mentality as racial stereotyping...
Really illogical and unscientific. That's a similar mentality as racial stereotyping...
pricklypear
1,060 Posts
people, people, people....
I think we're trying to make this too cut and dry... Look at it this way, if you were thinking of going to school because you needed a college education to make a decent wage - you would look for a profession that is stable and in demand, flexible, infinitely varied, has the potential for advancement, etc... Right? OK. What if you hated people? What if you had no compassion for anybody? What if you didn't care about ethics? What if you didn't believe in scientific principles? What if you had no aptitude for science at all?
Would you really choose nursing? Would you even make it through school? Would you be willing to wait around for a year sometimes just to get into school? Would you be willing to jump through all the hoops necessary? Would you make it through your first year? I'm not sure you would.
What I'm saying is...people DO go into nursing for many different reasons. A good wage, flexible schedule is probably the most popular. But I truly do think that most people in nursing DO care about something, or at least did at one time. People, science, healthcare, whatever. I just don't think you'd make it very far if you didn't.
I'm in it partly because of the money. But if I hated the other aspects of my job, I wouldn't continue. I would go and get a business degree, or human resources degree, or some other degree that would get me a paycheck. We can't slam everybody who says they chose nursing for monetary/financial reasons, as long as they do their job well.
I hope I made at least some sense. And comparing us to doctors is not fair. Considering doctor salaries are about 10 times nurses salaries, it's no wonder they are willing to put up with 8 years plus of school. How many doctors do you think there would be if they got paid 30$/hour?