Nurses who steal narcotics....

eriksoln, BSN, RN · Mar 13, 2011

Just playing devil's advocate about choices. People who are not prone to addictive behaviors, who do not have genetic factors, environmental factors, behavior modeling, etc. seem to have a difficult time grasping the concept that it the choices they make are not the same as the choices made by someone who is predisposed, etc. - because the challenges, the mitigating factors, the internal and external pressures, influences, self-dialog he/she wrestles in the wake of the same decision are not the same.
It's like that with everything. You can't make a definitive judgement about someone who makes a different choice because you cannot know first hand how they are affected or influenced.
That's just common sense.

We are judged by what we do, not the reasons for what we do. Thats just accountability.

eriksoln, BSN, RN · Mar 13, 2011

thank you, triquee for introducing in antelligent comment. ericksoln: your medieval beliefs serve no purpose to the evolution of the addiction sciences.
actually, the return to "tough love" approach is new and the "forever give second chances, its not their fault" enabling mentality is medieval. more and more groups are poping up that focus on how to deal with a loved on who is "impaired". alanon came after aa...........why? because people started to realize, recover or not, having an alcoholic in your life just plain stinks. and what do they push? not enabling. tough love baby, its the key to self realization and life in general. why? because the single most powerful force in changing human behavior and personality is................taa duuuummm............natural consequences. let people suffer the natural consequences of their actions and they will change. give second chance after second chance.......well, why would they change then.
if nurses were so afraid of the draconion punishments meted out by people like you, we'd never get anyone to self-report (yes, many nurses self surrender their license) and we'd never get others to do the right thing and get these nurses out of practice and into treatment for fear that they would be incarcerated and their lives ruined.
see, i hate to point out to you, you are not helping the recovery nurses here. one of my biggest complaints about this group is that they tend to have juvenile minds................everything/always/all the time is about them. "me, myself and i". no no no. getting nurses who divert drugs outta practice is not about saving some doped up depressed nurse. its about the main priority of all nurses..............providing the best care we can for the patient. its also helpful to us "non-impaired" nurses to not have to worry about them either, but that's secondary. the recovery and saving yourself "from the annals of addiction" are the impaired nurses problem post lost license. get better, and you have a chance at a productive happy life. don't, and, well, at least you didn't get to make any patients suffer along with you while you were on your way to under the bridge/jail/death.........wherever they end up (natural consequences).
your attitude just doesn't help resolve the problem. but i do appreciate that you've stayed with the conversation and hope that we can educate you here about all the bright, dedicated nurses who are back to work after recovery. why do we need them to come back to work instead of discarding them like trash? because they're the ones who can do the most to educate the rest of us and if we don't smarten us, patients will be injured.
refer to my original post............."it is the nurses who knew better than to use from the start who i consider the authority on the subject. they got the point without walking down that road". another flaw in the "enabling" point of view towards addicts. its almost as if wisdom, knowing better, is punished. no, addicts are not the keepers of some secret, guarded knowledge that only one who pops pills or drinks heavily understands. they tend to be selfish, self-centered and possess a sense of entitlement that would make even today's politicians cringe. if that's what makes you a good educator, then please.........i'm skipping class.
addiction will not go away. it will always work alongside of us. we can' t afford to be emotional and irrational. i suspect that you've been wronged by an addict in your family or close circle and you have an awful lot invested in being angry with them.
actually, i'll agree with you there. it won't go away. but we don't have to suffer the consequences of abuse along with the one's doing the abusing. tough love baby........its the new wave. but, on the other hand, no.........no freudian transference of anger here. i've always felt this way, heck......since hs. can't say i've ever been "wronged" by an addict cause......well..........tough love scares them away, they tend not to be around me when the trouble starts. i'm the one who calls the police and turns them in or takes their product off'em and flushes it down the toilet. hence, "impaired" people in general don't bring their bs to me.........and i rather appreciate that.
i see it like this. on one side, you have the users, on the other, you have the abstainers. each group picks their side for whatever reason it may be. me, i sit on the abstainer side of the room. why? because i believe whole heartedly in the consequences of using drugs. i don't want that in my life (police at the door every day, debt, loss of self etc etc).
now, you have the people on the other side of the room who can't say no. they can't pass up that high. they choose to use.
why on earth, as someone who has wisely abstained from such activity, would i want someone bringing their problems to me from the other side of the room? i abstained because i don't like that lifestyle (police at the door, debt, loss of self etc etc). so, how does it make sense to abstain.......not get to experience the high..........then suffer the consequences of a life of using over someone else's choices?
gee..........wanna have our cake and eat it? its a simple matter of action/consequences. use..........things go downhill. don't use........they might not. don't cry to me if you use and things go bad.......its not like you didn't know.
statistics tell us that nurse addicts tend to be experienced, often in their 40's and better educated. they're often going through a major life stress when exposed. do you really believe we'll solve this problem by simply discarding these people and hiring someone else. yes, because, again, "solving the problem" means protecting the patient (and to a certain extent, the non-users), not saving the addict. recovery is the addicts problem, no ours. those someone elses will have the same rate of addiction as the general population.

me love me some addict nurse vs. tough love debates. i never go into the recovery section because, well............thats their place to talk about w/e they want. but, bring this stuff up in the general forum and its fair game time.

allnurses Guide · Mar 13, 2011

My dad died of acute and chronic alcoholism. My brother is a "practicing alcoholic" not yet 50 years old and showing signs of liver damage. Another immediate family member is addicted to opiates that started out as use for a legitimate pain issue.

And yet it really bothers me when someone comes on allnurses to vent very understandable feelings about nurses who would let a patient suffer to feed their own addiction somebody must come in and scold that person because "addiction is a disease, you know" as if her merely venting meant she shouldn't feel that way or didn't know it was a disease. I'll bet the OP may have a family member with a substance abuse problem herself, the scolding is self-righteous.

Professional treatment of addiction recognizes the damage the addict causes and provides support for the collateral victims. It' allowed. They know it's a disease. There would be no Alanon if the response to anyone lamenting the damage caused by this was to judge people and tell them "it's a disease", as if being honest means you aren't quite up in the moral league as they are.

metal_m0nk, BSN, RN · Mar 13, 2011

We are judged by what we do, not the reasons for what we do. Thats just accountability.

Perhaps that is only the extent of your evaluation of the world around you.

You do not, however, speak for us all.

subee, MSN, CRNA · Mar 13, 2011

Me love me some addict nurse vs. tough love debates. I never go into the recovery section because, well............thats their place to talk about w/e they want. But, bring this stuff up in the general forum and its fair game time.

It seems that you're assuming that all nurse addicts get to return to work after treatment. That's one of the points of treatment - to separate out those who can get back to work from those that can't. And the ones who do get back to work are under big thumb of a monitoring program. These nurses have to pay for all their drug screen tests. They have to prove attendance to meetings. You also seem to believe that treatment programs are some kind of monolith and everyone agrees about who should go back to work and who shouldn't...WRONG. Based on common sense, I believe that no nurse who works in patient care should be permitted to work while on suboxone and yet I come across nurses who are allowed to do so and it makes me cringe. HOWEVER, at least that person is being scrutinized...much more closely than any other nurse on the unit. What's the difference which forum you're in? You're entitled to an opinion but I realize that it's just an opinion. Some will always incorporate "Opinion Above Knowledge" as their personal motto.

eriksoln, BSN, RN · Mar 13, 2011

Perhaps that is only the extent of your evaluation of the world around you.
You do not, however, speak for us all.

So...............your point is.................what?

Never presumed to speak for anyone but myself.

eriksoln, BSN, RN · Mar 13, 2011

It seems that you're assuming that all nurse addicts get to return to work after treatment. That's one of the points of treatment - to separate out those who can get back to work from those that can't. And the ones who do get back to work are under big thumb of a monitoring program. These nurses have to pay for all their drug screen tests. They have to prove attendance to meetings. You also seem to believe that treatment programs are some kind of monolith and everyone agrees about who should go back to work and who shouldn't...WRONG. Based on common sense, I believe that no nurse who works in patient care should be permitted to work while on suboxone and yet I come across nurses who are allowed to do so and it makes me cringe. HOWEVER, at least that person is being scrutinized...much more closely than any other nurse on the unit. What's the difference which forum you're in? You're entitled to an opinion but I realize that it's just an opinion. Some will always incorporate "Opinion Above Knowledge" as their personal motto.

So why not just end the debate and make it a one strike and you are out policy. Its not as if that approach is inhumane or immoral. Many things one can do that will get you fired and never rehired..........first time. Don't know why addicts should have this perpetual get out of jail free card.

Take physical altercations for example. That is a one time and out offense. After pushing and shoving a co-worker, you can sing whatever "environmental stresses" and "I come from a broken home" songs you want...........but you are still fired and will not find work again easily.

Drug diversion, to me, is much worse that a shoving match, but the addicts have won over enough people with their swan song to be the exception to fair punishment.

eriksoln, BSN, RN · Mar 13, 2011

My dad died of acute and chronic alcoholism. My brother is a "practicing alcoholic" not yet 50 years old and showing signs of liver damage. Another immediate family member is addicted to opiates that started out as use for a legitimate pain issue.
And yet it really bothers me when someone comes on allnurses to vent very understandable feelings about nurses who would let a patient suffer to feed their own addiction somebody must come in and scold that person because "addiction is a disease, you know" as if her merely venting meant she shouldn't feel that way or didn't know it was a disease. I'll bet the OP may have a family member with a substance abuse problem herself, the scolding is self-righteous.
Professional treatment of addiction recognizes the damage the addict causes and provides support for the collateral victims. It' allowed. They know it's a disease. There would be no Alanon if the response to anyone lamenting the damage caused by this was to judge people and tell them "it's a disease", as if being honest means you aren't quite up in the moral league as they are.

Some of the posters in here are starting to remind me of a woman who created a thread a long time ago. She was...........of course..........an impaired nurse who was allowed to return to work and had started using/diverting again. Gosh, it was pathetic to read:

"I came home and.........................:eek:surprise...........this oxycodone just happened to be in my pocket. I have no idea what pt. it was supposed to go to, maybe I just picked it up off the ground and forgot it:rolleyes:. So, I took it, and now I just can't stop thinking about how to get more. My manager called me in the office the other day and asked me if I was using again, what should I do?"

:mad:

Alrighty then Miss. Middle name is Denial. And, of course, when I pointed out "No, you not only shouldn't go back to work cause I have a feeling more pills are going to magically appear in your pocket as they days go by. Find another career." she became very defensive.

"You should read up on what its like on my side of the road. I have a disease and have suffered long and hard, the normal person would break and kill themselves over the mental anguish I endure every day of my life............blah blah blah".

Thats where the endless second chances given to drug diverters has gotten us. Pills magically appearing in nurses pockets, followed by a sense of entitlement to her job despite a major flaw.........drug diversion.

Seriously, am I the only one who see's the complete lack of fucos on pt. care going on with the current policies. We'd rather let all these doped nurses practice again so we can put off this air of being "of a higher moral intelligence" than protect the pt. from an obvious threat to their care?

Are these people even nurses, the ones defending the addicts? Where is the pt focus? If you aren't doing right by the pt., you've failed as a nurse regardless of how many fellow "impaired nurses" we save.

leslie :-D · Mar 13, 2011

Seriously, am I the only one who see's the complete lack of fucos on pt. care going on with the current policies. We'd rather let all these doped nurses practice again so we can put off this air of being "of a higher moral intelligence" than protect the pt. from an obvious threat to their care?

you are definitely not alone.

and i guess i don't have any of that "higher moral intelligence", because i lack sympathy towards the addicts.

if i see an addict who appears to be serious about their recovery, AND, doesn't make excuses for the harm s/he has inflicted on others, then i am tremendously supportive.

but there are many (MANY) addicts out there, who take advantage of the "illness" factor, and play it to their advantage.

i am also someone who cannot downplay the corrupt maltreatment of any/all pts affected by the addict's 'illness'.

seriously eriksoln, i believe many agree with you...

about tough love and a swift kick in the pants, being the more effective approach.

but they're just not posting about it...for fear of appearing unsympathetic.

but you're not alone.

seriously. :-l

leslie

metal_m0nk, BSN, RN · Mar 13, 2011

So...............your point is.................what?
Never presumed to speak for anyone but myself.

You said that "We are judged by what we do, not the reasons for what we do. Thats just accountability."

That is simply not true. YOU may judge others by what they do and not the reasons for what they do, but not all are included in your "we are judged" blanket statement. For example, I would not judge a child the same way I would judge an adult for the same action.

That's just common sense. Common sense and accountability are not mutually exclusive in my view of the world.

The point is...YOU are free to judge whomever you wish, however you wish - as ineffectual as it may prove in your effect on the larger world. But your brand of judgement is not universal. Don't make the mistake of assuming that that's the way the world works (because it isn't). And exercise caution when using that argument as justification for your personal brand of condemnation.

We are not all judged by what we do, rather than the reasons for what we do. Neither do we all judge others by what they do, rather than the reasons for what they do.

eriksoln, BSN, RN · Mar 13, 2011

You said that "We are judged by what we do, not the reasons for what we do. Thats just accountability."
That is simply not true. YOU may judge others by what they do and not the reasons for what they do, but not all are included in your "we are judged" blanket statement. For example, I would not judge a child the same way I would judge an adult for the same action.
That's just common sense. Common sense and accountability are not mutually exclusive in my view of the world.
The point is...YOU are free to judge whomever you wish, however you wish - as ineffectual as it may prove in your effect on the larger world. But your brand of judgement is not universal. Don't make the mistake of assuming that that's the way the world works (because it isn't). And exercise caution when using that argument as justification for your personal brand of condemnation.
We are not all judged by what we do, rather than the reasons for what we do. Neither do we all judge others by what they do, rather than the reasons for what they do.

Actually, thats a well known philosophical theory you're arguing with there. Sartre...............that name ring a bell. No.........eh, maybe someday in your free time google it.

Hmmmm, we have very different definitions of common sense. Seems you've attached giving endless second chances to nurses who are subpar to having common sense. If that's a requirement to be considered someone with common sense or "a higher moral intelligence".............then feeble minded I will be, with pride. Shame on me for knowing better.

The highlighted part is the flawed part of your argument/personality. Yes, we are judged that way. When we stray from that, we are not walking the road of higher intelligence or partaking in some guarded knowledge as many of the addict defenders would have you believe. Instead, what we are doing is straying away from the facts and allowing ourselves to be manipulated into making exceptions that otherwise would not be allowed. This exact phenomenon has been going on with drug addicts for many years, to the point where it is the norm, but that doesn't make it right. We've become so loose and forgiving of addicts that there is a sense of entitlement amongst users. Don't dare say you think someone should face up to the proper/full consequences of their behaviors.........such a notion is "medieval" and will have you branded as a social deviant ("oh, you must have been terribly hurt by someone on drugs"). Don't believe me that addicts have shaped things in their favor very well? Refer to my post comparing drug diversion and physical altercations.

Things did not become this way because of some new found hidden knowledge that opened our eyes to a higher truth. It simply became that way because the addicts hen pecked it in that direction. Something that separates addicts from other criminals is...........addicts have a talent for making their addiction and their actions YOUR PROBLEM. Heck, AA's bible, their book, even has an entire chapter dedicated to wives of drunks. A great many AA followers will tell you that chapter was titled poorly, with the title being a reflection of the times (working man drunk with stay at home wife being their picture of an alcoholic). Truthfully, that chapter is meant to be for anyone who, as I stand accused of being............are affected by the actions of a drunk loved one (be they your father, husband, wife, co-worker). Now, IDK about you, but if they have to dedicate an entire chapter to the loved one's of the alcoholic, its not an assumption to say addicts have been making their problems everyone else's concern for a long time and are very good at it. I believe the quote from the book is something to the effect of "We are like tornadoes ripping through other's lives".

Now, many years later, the same game is being played, with their addictions and behaviors being placed in the laps of non-users, but now its the one's in recovery joining in with it.................and if we don't accept it................. :eek: [gasp] "Its a disease and I am the victim, you are medieval". Phffft, please.

Nursing's stance on drug use, like many of the laws, are much too lax. IMO, drug diversion should be a one strike and you are out offense. The only problem is, everyone else is catching on, but nursing is not. Notice how much tighter the laws with drunk driving have gotten? Its not a coincidence. No amt. of "my daddy spanked me hard instead of with love" story telling will get you out of a DUI. ;)Drunk drivers are now being "judged by what they do, not the reasons for what they do." People got tired of the alcoholics killing off their grandchildren or leaving a family with only one parent because they didn't know when to say when or how to call a cab.

Eventually, the patients who lay in bed suffering from CA while someone is in the bathroom feeding their addiction with pain meds meant for them, like the people tired of drunk drivers, will speak up enough to have things changed too.

The truly sad part is, many of the victims of drug diversion are unable to speak for themselves. They are either too impaired by sickness or die without having a chance to. This is the part that should have nurses ready to declare war on the entire subject.

What it comes down to is this: Are you more concerned about saving a few doped up/depressed addict nurses or protecting your patients. I've clearly/boldly stated which side of the room I am on. God have mercy on anyone confused enough to be on the other side of the room.

tencat · Mar 13, 2011

I agree that once someone crosses the line and steals drugs from patients, it's time for him/her to rethink careers. I have issues with letting these nurses come back into the 'fold' because there is a HIGH probability that they will do it again.....and again....yes they have an illness. However, that illness makes nursing a job they should probably avoid. Not because they are subhuman or lacking morales, but because they will be around drugs daily and that's too much temptation.