Nurses who steal narcotics....

[MouseMichelle]

This is something that always ****** me off to no end. In my career I've know of 4 nurses who stole narcs. One would take liquid morphine and replace it with water, our pharmacy puts blue dye in ours. We had a card of narcs missing and the NOC nurse who accepted it (it had her signature on it) would not come in for a drug test. Another nurse years back would give vicodin, PCT whatever every four hours on the dot to the patients who had severe dementia knowing that they wouldn't be able to say whether or not they actually got the med.

I despise people like this. Why do it? Why not just go to one of those pain clinics and get your narcotics or whatever you want. Figure out which docs happily prescribe meds up the wazoo and go to them. Why take some elderly persons (I'm talking LTC) meds and make them suffer. What are your guys' thoughts on this.

[eriksoln, BSN, RN]

Are you for real? Seriously, when you write:"All the studies in the world about it being a disease doesn't mean a thing. ...... Those studies only matter if I am worried about helping the addict, which I am not. Their addiction is their problem...........and they should have to deal with it on their own........away from the nursing field. That way, if they slip up (as they often do)..........no more harm brought to the pt anyway so...........slip slide away as much as you want......what really matters (the pt) is OK either way."

Because if you are a licensed nurse, you violate the ANA Code of Ethics with much gusto. Provision 1 maintains our fundamental recognition that underneath all nursing practice is "respect for the inherent worth, diginity and human rights of every individual." Nurses are included in the term "every individual" and provision 3.6 specifically mandates that "The nurse extends compassion and caring to colleagues who are in recovery from illness or when illness interferes with job performance." Or are you of the belief that nursing ethics, along with the research demonstrating addiction is a neurobiological condition, should also be flung out the window? Paula Davies Scimeca, RN, MS

Yes I am for real. I don't think I've stuttered or blinked once............so, where does the confusion come from?

Provision 1: I think being all for a better/safter/more trustworthy healthcare team bleeds "respect for the inherent,worth, dignity and human rights" of the patient. How does promoting a care team the may or may not give them their pain meds reflect that?

Provision 3.6 If you want to interpret "extends compassion and caring to colleagues" as meaning being OK with drug diversion be my guest, but don't try to talk me into that train of thought.

Again, drug addicts can persue their lives and recovery just fine outside of nursing where if they "slip", no more harm brought to the pt. It's not like I'm saying lock them away and throw away the key or put them in the electric chair. I'm just saying........nursing isn't for them. Too much access to narcotics, high stress, physical fatigue.........with that kind of risk of relapse how are we doing the patient a favor by allowing second chances?

Next.

[OCNRN63, RN]

Yes I am for real. I don't think I've stuttered or blinked once............so, where does the confusion come from?

Provision 1: I think being all for a better/safter/more trustworthy healthcare team bleeds "respect for the inherent,worth, dignity and human rights" of the patient. How does promoting a care team the may or may not give them their pain meds reflect that?

Provision 3.6 If you want to interpret "extends compassion and caring to colleagues" as meaning being OK with drug diversion be my guest, but don't try to talk me into that train of thought.

Again, drug addicts can persue their lives and recovery just fine outside of nursing where if they "slip", no more harm brought to the pt. It's not like I'm saying lock them away and throw away the key or put them in the electric chair. I'm just saying........nursing isn't for them. Too much access to narcotics, high stress, physical fatigue.........with that kind of risk of relapse how are we doing the patient a favor by allowing second chances?

Next.

Ironic, considering your unforgiving stance toward nurses who won't work overtime when you want them to. Now you're concerned for their stress level and fatigue?

[metal_m0nk, BSN, RN]

Irrational thinking at its worst (applied to the treatment of others). And what of patients who are addicts? What is "best for patients" then? Are they to be exempted from appropriate nursing intervention or is that only if they are or were nurses?

Makes no sense.

[eriksoln, BSN, RN]

Ironic, considering your unforgiving stance toward nurses who won't work overtime when you want them to. Now you're concerned for their stress level and fatigue?

And.......................the point is....................what?

[OCNRN63, RN]

And.......................the point is....................what?

Willful obtuseness.

[eriksoln, BSN, RN]

Irrational thinking at its worst (applied to the treatment of others). And what of patients who are addicts? What is "best for patients" then? Are they to be exempted from appropriate nursing intervention or is that only if they are or were nurses?

Makes no sense.

Same old addict coping mechanism I've pointed out over and over: Bunch yourself in with another, unrelated group.............and insist one is like the other hence.......... criticize one means being critical of all. I've already shot this approach down, must I do it again? Sigh, OK, since you didn't get it first time around:

You can't bunch working nurses who are impaired and diverting drugs in with patients who are there.................as patients, not employees, and apply the same logic to them both as one group, even if the pt. happens to be an addict. One is on the clock, the other is receiving care. One is obligated to adhere to certain principles that direct care, the other is the recipient of said care.

As a nurse, I am obligated to believe "pain is what the patient says it is". If I suspect drug addiction exists, there are avenues to render assistance IF THE PT DESIRES SO. If the pt. does not wish to work on the addiction at that point in time, I am still obligated to render unbiased care so they may return to their optimal level of functioning. If I can't do that, then its time to hunt for a new career or at least a new position that doesn't make me care for addicts. Its much like the nurse who does not believe in abortion who has to choose..........work somewhere so it's not an issue or move on. Either way, the important thing is that the pt. gets the care from someone not judging them.

Now, on the other hand, doped up depressed nurse shows up on the unit and, well, TBH, I am obligated to report them so they can be removed. See, no obligation exists to give them any "compassion" or look at them through unbiased eyes as with the patient. If said nurse decides to change their behavior, I'm still not obligated to support them. Its their business, its the road they choose to walk and its not my problem. What is my problem is having a safe work environment where patients don't have to worry about their pain meds being used to feed an addiction rather than for treating their pain.

See, no obligation exists for me to concern myself with whether a drug diverting nurse is happy with what I think about what they are doing. What they are doing is wrong, end of story. When someone has crossed that line, they've shown a tendency that is foolish to simply dismiss in the name of being more "humane" or having a more "vogue intellect" so well respected in the circles of drug abusers.

Through all the talking in circles and crying about how "the devil made me do it", we still end up in the same place. A workplace free of nurses who divert drugs is better for the pt. So, it goes without saying...........how the addict feels about not being able to practice after showing a potential to cross this line.............is secondary at best.

[eriksoln, BSN, RN]

Willful obtuseness.

Didn't answer the question though. How bout I do it for ya:rolleyes:

You wrote "willful obtuseness".

Everyone reads: "I have no way to justify knowingly letting nurses who show a willingness to divert drugs practice again if I am putting the patient first. So, how bout I mis-quote another thread and make fun of that instead? That might help my case."

Are we using the old "bunching" defense again?

[OCNRN63, RN]

I didn't misquote your other thread. Are you a mind-reader, that you can know what "everybody" thinks about what I posted?

Nurses who work over-tired are working impaired. So someone who hectors co-workers to work on their days off/vacation days when they should be resting should really think long and hard about claiming some moral high ground on this issue. Fatigued nurses are just as dangerous as impaired nurses. Look at the studies that have been done on drunk drivers/sleepy drivers.

You may have your opinion on impaired nurses, and you're entitled to it. But it's the attitude of superiority on this, and the previous issue, that makes me think of the scripture, "Pride cometh before a mighty crash."

[metal_m0nk, BSN, RN]

Same old addict coping mechanism I've pointed out over and over: Bunch yourself in with another, unrelated group.............and insist one is like the other hence.......... criticize one means being critical of all. I've already shot this approach down, must I do it again? Sigh, OK, since you didn't get it first time around.

Umm...I'm not an addict, so this argument won't help you here.

Nurses who are addicts are still addicts, even when they're patients.

The invisible lines that you draw in your head to separate people by categories don't actually exist. Beneath any arbitrary delineation, addicts and nurses and race care drivers and schoolteachers, diabetics, anorexics, students, fathers...... are all just people, same as you, same as me.

The point is, your patient could be an addict nurse in recovery. What then? You become an integral part of their "second chance". How do you reconcile that with so much vitriol?

[eriksoln, BSN, RN]

I didn't misquote your other thread. Are you a mind-reader, that you can know what "everybody" thinks about what I posted?

Nurses who work over-tired are working impaired. So someone who hectors co-workers to work on their days off/vacation days when they should be resting should really think long and hard about claiming some moral high ground on this issue. Fatigued nurses are just as dangerous as impaired nurses. Look at the studies that have been done on drunk drivers/sleepy drivers.

You may have your opinion on impaired nurses, and you're entitled to it. But it's the attitude of superiority on this, and the previous issue, that makes me think of the scripture, "Pride cometh before a mighty crash."

Oh, OK. I get it now. Well, not really.

"I don't like you so you must be wrong". OK. You're allowed to think so.

:cool:Just a warning though, you're starting to sound a little more than impaired yourself now.

[eriksoln, BSN, RN]

Umm...I'm not an addict, so this argument won't help you here.

Nurses who are addicts are still addicts, even when they're patients.

The invisible lines that you draw in your head to separate people by categories don't actually exist. Beneath any arbitrary delineation, addicts and nurses and race care drivers and schoolteachers, diabetics, anorexics, students, fathers...... are all just people, same as you, same as me.

The point is, your patient could be an addict nurse in recovery. What then? You become an integral part of their "second chance". How do you reconcile that with so much vitriol?

Invisible lines? Can you point to the post where I said there are invisible lines? I don't remember it. I've said lots of things, don't recall that one. Or are these invisible lines your creation...............another talk in circles defense.

OK. So round and round we go changing this detail and that detail till we find the one instance in which maybe Erik MUST be nice to an addict. And when we find it, that.............by default..........proves they should be allowed to practice after they've diverted drugs. LOL..................weak. U sure U and what's her name above aren't popping the same pills right now.

But since the scenario above interests you so much we'll explain that one to you too:

If a nurse, who happens to be a drug addict, is ADMITTED TO THE UNIT..........ummm, they are not currently practicing nursing now are they? They really aren't a danger to the patients..........and, in fact, are one too. Soooooo.............we treat them like................a patient. Its really nowhere near as complicated as you are making it.

Then, they are discharged. What they do in their personal life is..........their call. If, while practicing nursing, they diverted drugs, then they get treated like any other nurse should and can't practice. IDK how needing to be hospitalized from falling and twisting your ankle would change that but...............eh, these days ya never know, they get away with worse so why not? I'm sure you're going to tell me. "Hey, studies show twisting your ankle opens up worm holes in the atmosphere that allows rare ions to excite the "addiction gene"................." PHfffft lmao.

[Scrubby]

Then, they are discharged. What they do in their personal life is..........their call. If, while practicing nursing, they diverted drugs, then they get treated like any other nurse should and can't practice. IDK how needing to be hospitalized from falling and twisting your ankle would change that but...............eh, these days ya never know, they get away with worse so why not? I'm sure you're going to tell me. "Hey, studies show twisting your ankle opens up worm holes in the atmosphere that allows rare ions to excite the "addiction gene"................." PHfffft lmao.

I couldn't agree more.

There is a world of difference when you are treating a patient with an addiction who happens to be a nurse, and a co-worker who is stealing drugs. What it comes down to is trust. I like to think that I can trust and rely upon my co-workers to do the right thing and not steal drugs from patients. If I had a patient who is not trustworthy and would steal drugs then quite frankly I don't care because I don't have to rely on them.

I find it hard to forgive any nurse who could sink so low as to steal narcotics. Not only does it cause suffering to patients but it can also implicate other nurses as well. While I hope any nurse in this position is able to overcome their addiction I'm undecided on whether they should be allowed back into the profession. I mean, how many chances should you give someone? How can you trust someone who has proven to be untrustworthy?