Nurses, physicians weigh in on new doctoral nurse degree

BBFRN, BSN, PhD · Mar 1, 2009

That may be true, but it's not up to you either. It's up the each state to decide whether or not the DNP/nurse with a PhD can call herself a "dr" in a clinical setting.

Funny, but it's been my experience that those MD/PhDs who teach and do research alongside the RN/PhDs at my institution have no issue with calling their nurse colleagues 'Doctor' in the clinical setting.

For example, I go to the MD's office with the RN/PhD researcher/professor, to collect data from the MD/PhD's patients. MD/PhD refers to my supervisor/mentor as Dr. So & So, to her patients & staff. It flows naturally, and there is no hesitation about it.

Why should she not be referred to as Doctor So & So? They are equals and colleagues in academia, but suddenly the MD/PhD is supposed to call her by her first name, because we're in the clincial setting? That makes no sense.

wooh, BSN, RN · Mar 2, 2009

You know, I am beginning to think that residents should not be called, "DR" either...since it's so confusing. They aren't "real doctors" by the definition of some of these physicians/ med students either...It may, "confuse the patients" (since of course they are obviously really stupid in some of the physician's opinions). So, I propose, that med students should have to wear a hat that says, "STUDENT" (Since clearly, patients are blind, and unable to read their badges!), Oh, and DEFINITELY the residents should have to wear something explaining that they are not full "Drs" yet...see here is the thing, "Dr" is an academic term, having NOTHING to do with medicine. Otherwise, would it make ANY sense that a resident is referred to as "DR" before completing the residency which is required for them to practice? Or even passing their boards? A person can be referred to as "DR", even if they have completed medical school, and never pass their boards, and never do a residency...because regardless, they have obtained a DOCTORATE in the acedemic arena....Oooh, I'm starting to get heated now....

Yep, it's odd because on my floor, patients and their families never have any trouble with the PAs and NPs that come visit them, and understanding their role. But I had to report a group of residents that were leading patients to believe that they were discharged at 6am when those residents visited them, then the patients and families were upset when the attending didn't actually come discharge them until noon, 3pm, 6pm or later. Of course, it was the nurses that were there between the resident visit and the attending visit listening to the family's confusion that "the DOCTOR" told them they were going home. If anything, it's physician "doctors" that are causing confusion, not people that are more than willing to explain who they are rather than admit they're a resident still in training that has no more power to discharge a patient than the person that takes my money in the cafeteria.

nursesail · Mar 3, 2009

Maybe we need to go to the European system. No physician is ever called "Dr." despite his or her medical degrees unless they go back and get a PhD as well. Physicians and surgeons are called Mr. or Ms. I think we need that system here. In this country anyone with any kind of doctorate, whether MD, OD, JD (lawyer), PhD, or DNP has the right to use the title Dr. It is not a legal issue. These physicians just don't want the competition from the DNP's.

momofstudent, ADN, BSN · Mar 3, 2009

Maybe we need to go to the European system. No physician is ever called "Dr." despite his or her medical degrees unless they go back and get a PhD as well. Physicians and surgeons are called Mr. or Ms. I think we need that system here. In this country anyone with any kind of doctorate, whether MD, OD, JD (lawyer), PhD, or DNP has the right to use the title Dr. It is not a legal issue. These physicians just don't want the competition from the DNP's.

Sorry, what? Which country are you referring to? I live in Portugal. Every one with a bachelor degree here is addressed formaly as Doctor. I kid you not. My bank sends my statements to Dr Rosemary (in reality Dra =feminine form of doctor) . . . . With this in mind maybe physicians should be addressed as Physician John Doe. Nurses could then be safely and clearly called Nurse Jane Doe and nurses with a doctorate could be called Doctor just as the economist or poet is addressed.

bluemalibu · Mar 3, 2009

It just might be that at the end of the day a few will have to swallow their egos and begin to distinguish themselves properly as physicians... the AACN and AANA have published their positions endorsing the adoption of a doctorate as the entry level of training for Nurse Anesthetists commencing in 2025. Or should they then not be considered "Doctors" either?!!

lamazeteacher · Mar 3, 2009

Oh, give me a break!

If it wasn't too costly of someone's time to determine the age and pomposity

of physicians who resent others having their doctorate in the subject for which they can be considered expert, I'd propose that it be done.

Those greying artifacts who consider themselves Gods among men (and women, if they consider us worthwhile), have to become less fragile about their standing in the world. In earlier times they were awarded beepers when no one else had one, and when that thing went off, in theatres, restaurants, etc. everyone knew who the most important individual was, in the place.

Surely those with doctorates in subjects unrelated to medicine, would remain sitting and being grateful they weren't needed for something about which they

never wanted to do anything. One would hope that degree would bring discernment as well as identification as an expert, accomplished/distinguished in their field. If they volunteer to give medical assistance, their doctorate should be withdrawn, due to lack of intelligence. (Just kidding.)

This thread resembles an earlier one about a request for a "doctor" in an airplane when a fellow travelor required care. No one volunteered until free flights were offered the physician brave enough to face a possible increase in

their malpractise insurance premium, should they not function optimally (possibly while off duty they had an alcoholic beverage, which should exclude anyone).

Finally a student nurse rose to the occasion and after successfully dealing very

professionally with the disgusting lower and upper GI symptoms of a man in the teensie forward bathroom, she was offered half the value of the prize dangled for physicians.

It would be easier to train the tens of thousands of those in jobs who are

responsible for the public who might need a "healthcare professional", to use that term when making their announcement after someone becomes acutely ill 3000 feet up in the sky, or at a ballgame, etc.

lamazeteacher · Mar 3, 2009

Yep, it's odd because on my floor, patients and their families never have any trouble with the PAs and NPs that come visit them, and understanding their role. But I had to report a group of residents that were leading patients to believe that they were discharged at 6am when those residents visited them, then the patients and families were upset when the attending didn't actually come discharge them until noon, 3pm, 6pm or later. Of course, it was the nurses that were there between the resident visit and the attending visit listening to the family's confusion that "the DOCTOR" told them they were going home. If anything, it's physician "doctors" that are causing confusion, not people that are more than willing to explain who they are rather than admit they're a resident still in training that has no more power to discharge a patient than the person that takes my money in the cafeteria.

I think Universal Healthcare will cause a change in hospital admission/discharge procedures, since patients still in hospital at 3 PM who were discharged by any doctor before 11AM,are considered to be in for an (unnecessary) additional day, and their insurance company/taxpayers so charged. Physicians moseying in at 3 PM won't find their about-to-be discharged patients there, as they didn't function with the hospital team, with a fiscally sound Care Plan.

My son just spent 2 days in hospital unnecessarily, in my opinion, which is another story.

It could take a doctoral candidate nurse to devise money saving criteria that will stop the outflooding of money to greedy, profiteering (even if they say they're non profit) hospital executives from even greedier conglomerates that own multiple facilities all over this nation. It's a virtual feeding frenzy of healthcare money grabbers, at this time. I've worked at Blue Cross recently, which was quite an eye opener in that regard, believe me!

lamazeteacher · Mar 3, 2009

Sorry, what? Which country are you referring to? I live in Portugal. Every one with a bachelor degree here is addressed formaly as Doctor. I kid you not. My bank sends my statements to Dr Rosemary (in reality Dra =feminine form of doctor) . . . . With this in mind maybe physicians should be addressed as Physician John Doe. Nurses could then be safely and clearly called Nurse Jane Doe and nurses with a doctorate could be called Doctor just as the economist or poet is addressed.

In the British Isles, the most accomplished doctors revert to being called Mr.!

CountyRat · Mar 4, 2009

That may be true, but it's not up to you either. It's up the each state to decide whether or not the DNP/nurse with a PhD can call herself a "dr" in a clinical setting.

I think, Silas, that you might be confusing academic credentials with licensure, as some others have. A doctor is a person who has earned a doctoral degree (MD, DO, OD, JD, PhD, PsyD, etc.) from a university. Possession of a doctoral degree makes one a doctor, and entitles one to use that title. However, possession of a degree does not confer authority to practice. Authority to practice is granted by the state, provincial, and territorial governments in the form of a license (or registration, for our Canadian colleagues). The states define scope of practice. They do not grant degrees or assign academic titles. "Doctor" is an academic title, not a license.

anggelRN · Mar 4, 2009

that may be true, but it's not up to you either. it's up the each state to decide whether or not the dnp/nurse with a phd can call herself a "dr" in a clinical setting.

wow. i am shocked and befuddled by your ignorance. i will make sure i refer to every nurse with a dnp as "dr." oh yeah, that goes for everyone with a phd as well- but maybe you need their curriculum to be cleaned up also. gimme a break. the fact that this dnp program has so many people fired up makes me laugh.

istat · Mar 5, 2009

Is there a problem with Nursing wanting and/or having a doctorial degree. Of course not. But I've been looking at the curriculum listed for the DNP. With one or two exceptions all that I can say is-You've got to be putting me on. Do it right or these ivory tower academics are going to destroy any crediblilty that we've worked so hard and long to develop.

doctor edd · Mar 5, 2009

As as Dr Nurse the only people I confuse is my students. As educators and practitioners we work just as hard for the title. I worked in ED where we all worked together and boundaries to practice are less well defined as we work as a team. The Dr title did not come into it.

love the debate