No one wants to badmouth Florence Nightingale, but a new degree for nurses is causing bad blood between doctors and their longtime colleagues. The program confers the title of doctor on nurses, but some in the medical profession say only physicians should call themselves "doctor."
Dr. Steven Knope is a family practitioner in Tucson, Ariz. "If you're on an airline," he jokes, "and a poet with a Ph.D. is there and somebody has a heart attack, and they say 'Is there a doctor in the house?'-should the poet stand up?" Knope laughs. "Of course not."
Physicians such as Knope say the title of doctor implies a certain amount of training, hours in medical school that nurses just don't have. Dr. Ted Epperly, president of the American Association of Family Practitioners, says that while doctors place a high value on nurses, sharing the same title could confuse-and even harm-patients.
the above web link is just one example that lists ethics in first year medicine. (note - it is not an elective course)
"management" is incorporated into the course structure for several different classes that span several different years. but then again.....perhaps your school never addressed such matters. (i'm sure that you'll not take offense at that.)
actually, they're not.
i had one seminar on ethics, once a week for four weeks. everyone is presumed to have learned statistics as an undergraduate, along with the other basics like biochemistry, cellular biology, and basic writing. management isn't even discussed.
I had one seminar on ethics, once a week for four weeks. Everyone is presumed to have learned statistics as an undergraduate, along with the other basics like biochemistry, cellular biology, and basic writing. Management isn't even discussed.
Tired, I could go to all the trouble of looking up the curriculum of various schools of medicine but.......I don't feel like it. You can act like you don't believe me, I don't care. We both know that those classes most certainly are taught at many medical schools. Oh and the statistics I was referring to was biostatistics. Are you trying to tell me you didn't learn biostatistics and epidemiology? Interesting. I'm starting to get concerned. We have one resident who can't tell the difference between a cafeteria worker and a physician and now you??????
As for the management piece, that may be unusual for medical school but it is relevant for the DNP because they are also preparing to become administrators (and clinical faculty).
Specializes in Trauma,ER,CCU/OHU/Nsg Ed/Nsg Research.
The PGY med students don't take biostats or epidemiology in my school, either. I'm taking those courses within the school of public health- which makes sense, really. Some med students do take those courses, if they are doing the dual degree thing.
They do take Biochem, advanced A&P, Patho, Genetics, etc. etc. though.
I had one seminar on ethics, once a week for four weeks. Everyone is presumed to have learned statistics as an undergraduate, along with the other basics like biochemistry, cellular biology, and basic writing. Management isn't even discussed.
From what I've witnessed, there are plenty of MD's who slept through their ethics class!
Tired, I could go to all the trouble of looking up the curriculum of various schools of medicine but.......I don't feel like it. You can act like you don't believe me, I don't care. We both know that those classes most certainly are taught at many medical schools. Oh and the statistics I was referring to was biostatistics. Are you trying to tell me you didn't learn biostatistics and epidemiology? Interesting. I'm starting to get concerned. We have one resident who can't tell the difference between a cafeteria worker and a physician and now you??????
How can you tell the difference when everyone wears a long white coat and no one wears a nametag? But I digress . . .
Under LCME, ethics training is mandatory for medical schools. The actual form and structure of the courseis left to the discretion of individual schools. Mine, and most of my colleagues I have discussed this with, was a stripped-down bare minimum "seminar" which basically outlined important topics like, "Don't have sex with your patients, even if they're attractive" and "Get a patient to sign a release form before you let them go AMA." In general, our curriculum is already packed to the gills with actual medical topics, so the goal of ethics education tends more towards a 'check the box' mentality than any real attempt to address the topic comprehensively.
No, we didn't learn biostats and epidemiology. That's an undergraduate topic. It was discussed, but not formally taught, because the presumption was that you had already covered it as a component of your bachelors degree. Kind of like Newtonian physics and basic cell biology. All that is covered in the licensing exams, so if you are weak in it, it's a good idea to relearn it on your own.
The business/financial/management side of health care is generally not addressed, because an MD is a clinical degree, not an administrative degree.
biostats and epidemiology are not requirements for most if any medical schools and they are not addressed in the MCAT. They may be in your licensing exam and you may be expected to learn it on your own time, but to claim knowledge of these subjects is taken for granted because of your undergrad degree is just misleading.
Specializes in Med-Surg; Telemetry; School Nurse pk-8.
[quote=TiredMD;3485019
No, we didn't learn biostats and epidemiology. That's an undergraduate topic. It was discussed, but not formally taught, because the presumption was that you had already covered it as a component of your bachelors degree.
Covered year 1 at Harvard Med in the New Pathway MD program, and these topics are covered in greater depth in the Harvard/MIT collaborative program -- neither of which are undergrad programs.
As a side note... better start wearing your name badge (and above the waist) JACHO requires it in the hospital setting. The "Management" will tell you about this...
The PGY med students don't take biostats or epidemiology in my school, either. I'm taking those courses within the school of public health- which makes sense, really. Some med students do take those courses, if they are doing the dual degree thing.
They do take Biochem, advanced A&P, Patho, Genetics, etc. etc. though.
I'm sure it's different from school to school. Also the format may be different ie those classes may be integrated into another class or they may be taught as a seminar, etc. Bottom line(which we've gotten far, far away from-my fault for opening that door): those classes are not fluff. Someone originally held them up as proof that the DNP was not rigorous in nature and that classes had nothing to do with advanced clinical practice and knowledge. I continue to disagree.
I believe that the MD is trying to mislead the people and as well be selfish.Its high time the physicians [so called drs] realised that the nursing profession needs to grow and is growing.
I believe that the MD is trying to mislead the people and as well be selfish.Its high time the physicians [so called drs] realised that the nursing profession needs to grow and is growing.
I'm trying to mislead people by telling you what I took in medical school? Amusing.
Believe it or not, we do have a few prereqs we do before we go to med school. And the fact that a few courses have titles that sound similar to traditional undergraduate topics does not mean that these subjects are taught at a basic level, or that we haven't seen the basic material as undergraduates.
I took biochemistry in med school, yet it still was a required pre-req. If you think new med students come in fresh, having never taken stats, ethics, etc, you're kind of deluding yourself.
It's also funny that you take statements of my own experience as some kind of attack on the nursing profession. I sense a touch of insecurity about your degree program.
APRN., DNP, RN, APRN, NP
995 Posts
i'm sure you'll agree that all medical schools are not identical in theory nor application.
http://med-docs.creighton.edu/administration/docs/cumedicalcurri.pdf
(page 4.......)
the above web link is just one example that lists ethics in first year medicine. (note - it is not an elective course)
"management" is incorporated into the course structure for several different classes that span several different years. but then again.....perhaps your school never addressed such matters. (i'm sure that you'll not take offense at that.)