Nurses, physicians weigh in on new doctoral nurse degree

Specialties Doctoral

Published

New Degree Creates Doctor Nurses-And Confusion

All Things Considered, February 22, 2009

No one wants to badmouth Florence Nightingale, but a new degree for nurses is causing bad blood between doctors and their longtime colleagues. The program confers the title of doctor on nurses, but some in the medical profession say only physicians should call themselves "doctor."

Dr. Steven Knope is a family practitioner in Tucson, Ariz. "If you're on an airline," he jokes, "and a poet with a Ph.D. is there and somebody has a heart attack, and they say 'Is there a doctor in the house?'-should the poet stand up?" Knope laughs. "Of course not."

Physicians such as Knope say the title of doctor implies a certain amount of training, hours in medical school that nurses just don't have. Dr. Ted Epperly, president of the American Association of Family Practitioners, says that while doctors place a high value on nurses, sharing the same title could confuse-and even harm-patients.

Full Story and listen to radio show here:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=100921215

new med students may or may not have taken stats and ethics in undergrad but those courses aren't required for most medical schools. therefore it cannot be taken for granted that those subject matters have been adequately covered prior to entering medical school. i'm sure the faculty of said medical schools would realize that and, since you say these subjects are covered on your licensing exams, would afford med students the opportunity to learn, in seminar or a formal classroom, these subjects.

secondly, i think we can all agree that undergrad courses are different than graduate school courses even when they are the same subject. they differ, usually, in the pace at which the material is covered, the depth in which it is covered, and by requiring the student to think more (rather than regurgitate). so even if a course in the dnp program resembles an undergrad course you've taken, i'm sure they're doing more with said subject.

dude, nursing is the wave of the future. we won't be stoped (like p. diddy). mds need a hug, a "wooo-saaa" and to just accept it and move on.:chuckle

cheers

....

I don't believe the poster you quoted was referring to you.:rolleyes:

Yada, yada, yada... in the end, it's who is willing to do the job, and do it well. In life there will always be someone nipping at your heels. You are behind the times if the idea of someone creeping into your field of vision scares you. And, who gives a rats a** what you took in school, I am sure you cannot remember most of it.

Change, will do ya good.

Specializes in OB, HH, ADMIN, IC, ED, QI.
Covered year 1 at Harvard Med in the New Pathway MD program, and these topics are covered in greater depth in the Harvard/MIT collaborative program -- neither of which are undergrad programs. As a side note... better start wearing your name badge (and above the waist) JCAHO requires it in the hospital setting. The "Management" will tell you about this...

Ancient forms of nursing education (such as mine) included a 6 week stint in an "Infectious Disease Hospital" called "The Alec" (probably another dinasoar). Let me tell you we rode ambulance there, were drilled in biostats, epidemiology, and cultural differences. Montreal (where I went to nursing school) had a raft of Hungarian refugees in the late '50s, French Canadians (very different attitudes toward health than Parisians and anglophiles), and Eskimos shipped down to civilization with polio and Tb (some had it in their hips). We even got a large English speaking family with typhoid, who begged to be transferred from the French speaking communicable disease hospital called "Hotel Dieux", as the nuns there wouldn't let them out of bed, lest their (contaminated) feet hit the shiny clean floors.

I'm very happy to have had the opportunity to study people of different ethnicity, and their diseases. Let me tell you the whooping cough ward was an experience at night! The children there hadn't been immunized.....:crying2: The Eskimo kids weren't used to wearing clothing at night, and many with bivalved casts had their restraint vests, casts, mattresses, linen, pajamas. and diapers on the floor, tossed from their cribs and were standing on bare springs by morning. What a sight! The igloos they'd been living in were very hot from a fire in the center and many people living there. Now those communities really needed Nurse Practitioners!!!

Just wondered ... has anyone mentioned that a physician's title 'doctor' is an honorarium?

A nursing (and any other) Doctor has earned theirs.

A nurse with a PhD has "earned" it in your sense. A DNP, as a professional clinical doctorate like the MD, would not.

Specializes in ED, Trauma, EMS, TNCC, ENPC, NRP,.
Dr. Steven Knope is a family practitioner in Tucson, Ariz. "If you're on an airline," he jokes, "and a poet with a Ph.D. is there and somebody has a heart attack, and they say 'Is there a doctor in the house?' — should the poet stand up?" Knope laughs. "Of course not."

Not for nothin' but in the FIVE times i have had to provide emergent care on commercial airlines (i know, S@#t magnet thats me!) when they called for a DOCTOR on board nobody came forward (not even POETS!) I knew for a fact they were onboard several times but didnt want to be bothered. (granted i wouldnt want the podiatrist to help me anyway!) So I end up going forward to offer help 4 times as a medic and once now as a nurse. Usually there is another EMT, Medic, or RN that offers to help out and we run the show until we land. the passengers are grateful, the flight crew is grateful, and the airline medical director is thankful that someone stepped forward!

anyhoo, while i am contemplating my next step (NP,DNP,CRNA, and even Med School!) i watch these arguments/opinions/position statements with interest and some amusement... cant we just all get along???:icon_hug:

Specializes in CT ICU, OR, Orthopedic.
I'm trying to mislead people by telling you what I took in medical school? Amusing.

Believe it or not, we do have a few prereqs we do before we go to med school. And the fact that a few courses have titles that sound similar to traditional undergraduate topics does not mean that these subjects are taught at a basic level, or that we haven't seen the basic material as undergraduates.

I took biochemistry in med school, yet it still was a required pre-req. If you think new med students come in fresh, having never taken stats, ethics, etc, you're kind of deluding yourself.

It's also funny that you take statements of my own experience as some kind of attack on the nursing profession. I sense a touch of insecurity about your degree program.

I am really not sure why it matters one way or another what is taken in med school? Why are we even arguing about this? Who cares? We are not physicians, we are not PAs, we are nurses! Biochem, organic, and inorganic, stats, ethics...all pre recs for undergrad nursing. Management, and research were taught in undergrad Grad stats, and research were pre recs for CRNA school. Who cares?

Specializes in Wilderness Medicine, ICU, Adult Ed..
I'm trying to mislead people by telling you what I took in medical school? Amusing.

Believe it or not, we do have a few prereqs we do before we go to med school. And the fact that a few courses have titles that sound similar to traditional undergraduate topics does not mean that these subjects are taught at a basic level, or that we haven't seen the basic material as undergraduates.

I took biochemistry in med school, yet it still was a required pre-req. If you think new med students come in fresh, having never taken stats, ethics, etc, you're kind of deluding yourself.

It's also funny that you take statements of my own experience as some kind of attack on the nursing profession. I sense a touch of insecurity about your degree program.

Tired MD makes good points. Of course medical training is more demanding than nursing training - at every level. Physicians are the most rigorously educated of health professionals; that is why they are given so much authority in patient care, and they always will. That is fine. That is best for patients. My only gripe is with those who object to nurses advancing their educations so that they can provide advanced services to patients. Of course we (i.e., nurses) are not educated the way physicians are! We have a different role in the care of the sick, so we are educated in different subjects. That is how it should be. Physicians will always be on the top of the medical totem pole because they are the most comprehensively educated. Good for them! They have my unalloyed respect. However, nurses with clinical PhDs also have a place in the system, and they are entitled to respect appropriate to their accomplishments.

Specializes in CT ICU, OR, Orthopedic.
Unless you want to post a link to your school's DNP curriculum that is going to be really hard to believe. I haven't seen a DNP program yet that didn't contain at least 50% fluff. Fluff being courses in theory, management, ethics, statistics, business, education, etc. which may or may not be rigorous in nature but have zero to do with advanced clinical practice and knowledge, the stated purpose of the DNP.

University Of Michigan:

http://www.umflint.edu/graduateprograms/nursing_degree_bsn.htm

Year 1 (Minimum 17 credits)

Fall Semester

Advanced Pathophysiology (3)

Biostatistics (3)

Winter Semester

Advanced Pharmacology & Pharmacotherapeutics (3)

Advanced Health Assessment & Clinical Reasoning - Theory (2)

Spring/Summer

Advanced Health Assessment & Clinical Reasoning - Practicum (3)

Theoretical Perspectives in the Discipline of Nursing for Advanced Practice (3)

Year 2 (Minimum 22 credits)

Fall Semester

Primary Health Care of Adolescents/Adults/Elders - Theory Part I (3)

Primary Health Care of Adolescents/Adults/Elders - Practicum (1-3)*

Epidemiology (1)

Applied Pharmacology I (1)

Adv. Quantitative/Qualitative Research Methods Related to Capstone Project I (1)

Winter Semester

Primary Health Care of Adolescents/Adults/Elders - Theory Part II (3)

Primary Health Care of Adolescents/Adults/Elders - Practicum (1-3)*

Applied Pharmacology II (1)

Adv. Quantitative/Qualitative Research Methods Related to Capstone Project II (1)

Residency Related to Capstone Project (1)

Spring/Summer

Primary Health Care of Adolescents/Adults/Elders - Practicum (1-3)*

Adv. Quantitative/Qualitative Research Methods Related to Capstone Project III (1)

Informatics (2)

Year 3 (Minimum 21 credits)

Fall Semester

Adv. Health Assessment of Children - Theory4 (2)

Women's Health - Theory/Practicum (3)

Psychiatric Diagnosis - Theory2 (2)

Special Topics in Adult Nurse Practitioner Care - Theory/Practicum3 (3-7)

Advanced Quantitative/Qualitative Research Methods Related to Capstone Project IV (1)

Residency Related to Capstone Project (1)

Winter Semester

Primary Health Care of Children - Theory4 (3)

Primary Health Care of Children - Practicum4 (1)

Individual/Couple/Family Psychotherapy - Theory2 (3)

Organizational & Administrative - Theory (3)

Special Topics in Adult Nurse Practitioner Care - Theory/Practicum3 (3-7)

Advanced Quantitative/Qualitative Research Methods Related to Capstone Project V (1)

Primary Health Care of Adolescents/Adults/Elders - Practicum1 (1-3)

Spring/Summer

Health Policy & Economics (2)

Primary Health Care of Children - Practicum4 (3)

Individual/Couple/Family Psychotherapy - Practicum2 (4)

Residency Related to Capstone Project (1)

Primary Health Care of Adolescents/Adults/Elders - Practicum1 (1-3)

Year 4 (Minimum 20 credits)

Fall Semester

Advanced Practice Role - Theory (3)

Advanced Practice Role - Practicum (2)

Advanced Quantitative/Qualitative Research Methods Related to Capstone Project VI (1)

Winter Semester

Transcultural Care for Advanced Practice (3)

Mental Health in Primary Care (3)

Group Psychotherapy2 (2)

Residency Related to Capstone Project (1)

Spring/Summer

Urgent Primary Care - Theory/Practicum (2)

Academic Faculty Role Theory and Application (3)

Residency Related to Capstone Project (2)

Specializes in OB, HH, ADMIN, IC, ED, QI.

We do get along together, until someone pulls rank, or belittles another. You just have to know that whoever is trying to inflate their importance over another, is insecure and needs a pat on the back for having accomplished themselves in the way they did.

That doesn't mean you do it derisively - just a nice, "It's good to have you here" will do.

I'll tell you what- if I'm going to use the title Doctor, then I'm going to med school so that I can have ALL of the power and Authority that comes with the title, and none of the controversy.

nice try, but we both know this isn't a stand-alone dnp degree (the kind existing msn/nps get to enhance their clinical expertise, and the kind that is being discussed here) but rather a direct-entry doctoral np training degree for rns. of course it's going to contain all the clinical science that existing msn programs contain.

now, here is the link for your school's post-msn dnp program. and yes, it's mostly the kind of "fluff" we've been talking about. how is this transforming msn-prepared nps into more expert clinicians who now have "all the medical knowledge of a physician?"

31 credits total

year 1 (6 credits)

fall semester

biostatistics (3)

winter semester

no classes

spring/summer

theoretical perspectives in the discipline of nursing for advanced practice (3)

year 2 (6 credits)

fall semester*

adv. quantitative/qualitative research methods related to capstone project i (1)

winter semester

adv. quantitative/qualitative research methods related to capstone project ii (1)

residency related to capstone project (1)

spring/summer

adv. quantitative/qualitative research methods related to capstone project iii (1)

informatics (2)

year 3 (9 credits)

fall semester

advanced quantitative/qualitative research methods related to capstone project iv (1)

residency related to capstone project (1)

winter semester

organizational & administrative - theory (3)

advanced quantitative/qualitative research methods related to capstone project v (1)

spring/summer

health policy & economics (2)

residency related to capstone project (1)

year 4 (10 credits)

fall semester

advanced quantitative/qualitative research methods related to capstone project vi (1)

winter semester

transcultural care for advanced practice (3)

residency related to capstone project (1)

spring/summer

academic faculty role theory and application (3)

residency related to capstone project (2)

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