Nurses, physicians weigh in on new doctoral nurse degree

[Brian]

New Degree Creates Doctor Nurses-And Confusion

All Things Considered, February 22, 2009

No one wants to badmouth Florence Nightingale, but a new degree for nurses is causing bad blood between doctors and their longtime colleagues. The program confers the title of doctor on nurses, but some in the medical profession say only physicians should call themselves "doctor."

Dr. Steven Knope is a family practitioner in Tucson, Ariz. "If you're on an airline," he jokes, "and a poet with a Ph.D. is there and somebody has a heart attack, and they say 'Is there a doctor in the house?'-should the poet stand up?" Knope laughs. "Of course not."

Physicians such as Knope say the title of doctor implies a certain amount of training, hours in medical school that nurses just don't have. Dr. Ted Epperly, president of the American Association of Family Practitioners, says that while doctors place a high value on nurses, sharing the same title could confuse-and even harm-patients.

Full Story and listen to radio show here:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=100921215

[califalcon]

I just LOVE your post. So logical and true, but so funny!!!! You made my day, I will show your post to all my nurse friends and maybe even a doctor would laugh a little (allopathic I mean, not one of those doctor poets).

PS I am editing, I forgot to say, I laughed my ass off...thank you!!! I just love your sense of humor and smarts.

I just wonder if Dr. Knope would know he effects of altitude....or run a vent in flight.

Sure; MD's are qualified to practice medicine, but there is a reason why in he US, only Nurses and Paramedics, do EMS and in-flight care.

[Karla.S]

The way I see it, if you want to spend the time and money to earn a doctorate degree, then you should have the privelage to call yourself a "doctor" in whatever you further your studies in. I know a woman who is a computer teacher in an elementary school and everyone calls her Dr. "lastname" because she earned that right. Medical doctors (with all respect that they should have for earning such a title) should be called physicians:twocents:

[bubbabubba]

A person with an undergraduate degree goes to medical school and in (hopefully) 4 years, they finish an M.D. degree and are then immediately called "doctor"------

An RN gets a masters in Nursing and a doctorate in nursing---that would take I presume at least 4 years to acomplish......What is the difference? Equal title for equal training? From the moment a physician finished medical school, no internship, no exam passage, no license, etc. they are "doctor"---

"M.D.-ieity" threatening--(A term I read on this link and LOVED)-- perhaps. I have known many nurses who knew FAR more about a specialty than did the physician they worked for or assisted........equal pay for their knowledge or expertese? Absolutely not....at least they could have a title that reflected their advanced training...

bubba

[CraigB-RN, MSN, RN]

I just wonder if Dr. Knope would know he effects of altitude....or run a vent in flight.

Sure; MD's are qualified to practice medicine, but there is a reason why in he US, only Nurses and Paramedics, do EMS and in-flight care.

Hmm the Doc sitting across from in the chamber with this critical patient probably knows more about the actuall physics of what's going on than I do, and funny he's running the vent also.

That is just specialized training and has nothing to do with anything here in this discussion. I'd hazard to say that prob 98+% of the medics and nurses out htere would have no idea about any of that stuff till they are trained in it

[hereigoagain]

Hmm the Doc sitting across from in the chamber with this critical patient probably knows more about the actuall physics of what's going on than I do, and funny he's running the vent also.

That is just specialized training and has nothing to do with anything here in this discussion. I'd hazard to say that prob 98+% of the medics and nurses out htere would have no idea about any of that stuff till they are trained in it

If you read what the post says, your reply does not make any sense. The post is very clear, read it again...did you have a long shift or something? Yeah, let's beat up on each other...are you controling the thread or something? Be nice.

[cardiacRN2006, ADN, RN]

Yeah, the guy they quoted for this article with his silly airline allegory is a jerk.

Indeed.

He's also married to a nurse. I wonder how she feels about his stupid airline comment?

[cardiacRN2006, ADN, RN]

Are you kidding me? I get confused as to the roles of who is the physician and who isn't in the hospital, and I'm a med student. It'ts fricking hard, and I can only imagine that if you're in bed, sick, and half-drugged the last thing you're going to remember is the distinction b/w "Dr. so and so the nurse in the long white coat with a stethoscope hanging around her neck and Dr. so and so the physician with the stethoscope hanging around her neck." Face it, you all look the same to patients and patient families, especially when you're all dressed in white coats and/or scrubs, and no one can read those badges, especially elderly patients who tend to have visual impairments. If I can't see your qualifications on your badge, chances are your patients can't read 'em either. Plus you have so many letters after your name, they're probably busy trying to figure out what they all mean anyway OR they're just figuring that you MUST be qualified to have that many abbreviations on your badge.

Ahhh, yet another lost med student or Dr who is completely and utterly clueless about what the role of a nurse is in the hospital.

Just out of curiosity, how the heck would you know what pts are thinking or feeling? Maybe in the one or two minutes that you spent with them?

BTW, most pts are NOT half drugged.

Half the stuff we do is re-explain all the things that the Dr said to the Pt and family (you know, after you've walked out on them)

Most KNOW who their Dr is and what their role is.

Just because you are clueless about roles (trust me, we know) doesn't mean that they pts are.

All in all, there is NO convincing argument as to why a person with a doctoral degree can't be called Dr *(unless, of course, they are a nurse, right?)

Get over it, because it's happening...

[edowhitetop]

Sorry, Dr. Knope, your example does not impress me. The PhD poet would understand the question even if you do not. And the Doctor-Nurse could probably handle the crisis at least as well as the Doctor-Physician. So give us all a break. The best "doctor" I ever had is a Nurse Practitioner. Sure, I had to be referred for certain things--but she took time and paid attention so this was all done appropriately and expeditiously. I felt valued. And I am probably alive today because of her stat handling of my care when she discovered a malignant mass. If you physicians want instead of , you will have to get from someone else--not me.

[momofstudent, ADN, BSN]

Sorry, Dr. Knope, your example does not impress me. The PhD poet would understand the question even if you do not. And the Doctor-Nurse could probably handle the crisis at least as well as the Doctor-Physician. So give us all a break. The best "doctor" I ever had is a Nurse Practitioner. Sure, I had to be referred for certain things--but she took time and paid attention so this was all done appropriately and expeditiously. I felt valued. And I am probably alive today because of her stat handling of my care when she discovered a malignant mass. If you physicians want instead of , you will have to get from someone else--not me.

Yes, I second that too. The best doctor I ever had was a nurse practioner!!

[znov11]

Nurses and MDs are not supposed to misunderstand and climb over one another, they are made to UNDERSTAND and collaborate for the welfare of others.

[SharonH, RN]

Are you kidding me? I get confused as to the roles of who is the physician and who isn't in the hospital, and I'm a med student. It'ts fricking hard, and I can only imagine that if you're in bed, sick, and half-drugged the last thing you're going to remember is the distinction b/w "Dr. so and so the nurse in the long white coat with a stethoscope hanging around her neck and Dr. so and so the physician with the stethoscope hanging around her neck." Face it, you all look the same to patients and patient families, especially when you're all dressed in white coats and/or scrubs, and no one can read those badges, especially elderly patients who tend to have visual impairments. If I can't see your qualifications on your badge, chances are your patients can't read 'em either. Plus you have so many letters after your name, they're probably busy trying to figure out what they all mean anyway OR they're just figuring that you MUST be qualified to have that many abbreviations on your badge.

Your patients probably don't ask you because they're embarassed. I'm guessing that you're not horrible and mean to your patients, and who wants to ask their provider what the heck her position is again once they've already said it? Who wants to go, "So what is it that you do again, dear?"

Oh my goodness no, I'm not kidding you. It is hard to distinguish between people in white coats when they don't introduce themselves properly. But if you introduce yourself, explain who you are and your role then they are quite capable of making the distinction, trust me. They may forget names, but they know very well, who their heart doctor is and who the pharmacist is and who the nurse practitioner is. Give the patients some credit.

As for being embarassed, they are often embarassed to admit to the physician that they may not have understood something clearly, and they are certainly sometimes intimidated when a group of doctors with medical students, residents, fellows and attendings gang up on them but they are not embarassed to admit their confusion to the nurse. You're still a student so you don't know this and I'm not sure your attendings get it either, but trust me when you guys leave the room they call the nurse and ask us to interpret what was just said to them. I tramslate everything from lab results to prognosis. That's something for you to think about as you learn to communicate with your patients.

[cruisin_woodward]

I think Doctors in Philosophy or Education are not that stupid to stand up and present themselves as Medical Doctors. Lol. Common Sense. Besides, when a nurse finishes PhD, he/she will probably become a dean of a college or something like that. Being staff in a hospital is a rare place to be for such accomplishment. ^_^

We are talking about clinical doctorates. A DNP is a clinical doctorate, and therefore NPs with this title WILL be working in the clinical setting...this is what has the physician's panties in a bunch. I went to return a call to a speech pathologist the other day, and the HUC reminded me that he (the speech pathologist) was a Dr. The nurse next to me was all, "he's not a DR!! He just has his doctorate! Give me a break!!". I told her that he earned it, and I was going to respect that. I guess the level of education didn't mean much to her...it does to me... I have also had surgeons talk about CRNAs getting their DNP, and saying, "what now you will have the same level of education as me? Am I supposed to call you "Dr"?" they are threatened by this even when it has nothing to do with confusing patients! I had one physician (that I respect very much) tell me to call him, "Tom" not Dr so and so, unless I wanted him to refer to me as "Nurse so and so". He pointed out that we were collegues, with the same goal in mind! If more of them had this attitude, then this wouldn't be an issue...