Nurses crossing picket lines??

zenman · Jul 8, 2004

Posted by RNPATL: Randy - I have taken the time to read much of this thread and really feel compelled to respond to this post.

Very good post.

In my opinion, nurses strike for very good reasons. A nurse that goes on strike, takes this decision very seriously.

But is it the "most wise" decision for "all" concerned? That's one point I want to stress.

For many nurses, we are passionate about the quality of care we provide our patients. Many nurses feel that the only voice they have is the power of the union and the ability to strike.

Why is it our only voice...I wonder?

I can't imagine any nurse really wanting to take this action. I agree with you that striking may not be the answer and that as a large professional group, nurses have a lot more power than they realize.

Are we using power in the most effective manner?

But, in our world today, unions do play a role in advocating for better working conditions and for better safety standards for the patient through the power of striking.

Unions do have their place.

I think we need to really explore and discuss the fact that nurses go on strike because management does not listen.

Like I said earlier, hospitals are not breeding grounds for creativity and most probably deserve what happens to them.

Oh and Randy, I am aware of the reimbursement issues in health care. But, I have to agree with many of the posters .... perhaps if the CEO's of many of these hospitals added their bonuses back into the bottom-line, we might have a little more revenue to provide sufficient staff to provide safe care to the patients. In my local community (in Florida - before I moved to NC) - the CEO was making $650,000 a year and was about to receive a yearly bonus of $50,000 at the same time he had made the decision to cut more nursing positions at the hospital. The reason he made the $50,000 bonus was because he was running a "tight ship." What he was doing, was creating a hospital environment that was unsafe and placed nurses in very dangerous positions.

True, but there are several issues here. Is the CEO being paid a fair wage in regards to his peers? If so, are we to fault him for his fair salary? We have our opinions on the matter.. I think the president of Chysler could have kept a few factories running with his obscene salary instead of putting people out of work. I think that I personally would put money back into my people because I could surely survive on just a few million a year!! But...someone is trying to please shareholders!

Seems strange to me that CEO wages and compensation packages are growing at the same time reimbursement is declining. ummm.

Yep, something's wrong with the system.

Perhaps the only voice the nurses feel they have is a union.

Why is this?

One last point ..... you indicated that you had crossed the picket line to cover for nurses that were on strike and that you provided better care than they did. How can you make a valid and blanket statement like this? Were you aware of the working conditions before the strike? Many hospitals that go on strike have increased their staffing because of the media publicity. They want to come across as the victums. Are you aware of what the staffing ratios were prior to the strike and the challenges those nurses faced? I can assure you that the conditions were pretty bad for those men and women to leave their jobs, caring for their patients, to walk a picket line.

Sorry, no blanket statement intended. Some of the nurses are great and I respect their clinical ability. Others...well, I'm trying to stay healthy and out of the hospital. I'm still dealing with some of these nurses as they do not meet the ability of others I have worked with. I think staffing stayed the same. Mandatory OT was an issue as was retirement plan, grievances, etc.. Wages went up. As I said earlier, some of the travelers wondered why they were striking. My personal feeling is that all problems are managements fault. One CEO told me that if his hospital fell down because it was on an earthquake fault line, it would be his fault because he didn't check it out!

I think it is ok to have differing perspectives on issues, but I think it is important to respect the decisions of others. I struggle with the idea of striking, but I can certainly respect the decision a nurse on strike goes through to come to that conclusion.

No problem there. What really irks me is that nurses "have" to depend on unions. I don't see the union leaders forgoing their salary while the nurses are doing without. Retirement...set up your own. Never depend on a company's retirement plan. Some companies go under. Have your eggs in more than one basket. From what I understand the union here didn't let the nurses know till the night before that the strike was on. Now the union is in a shambles. Lawsuits, top people getting the boot, all kinds of problems. This is what nurses consider their voice??? I think unions, in my experience foster a certain dependency. I left my mother and was in the Army 3 days after graduating from high school. If I want something, I'll go ask for it. I don't need a go-between and have never had one except for when my ex-wife got after me with a mean lawyer! I think overall teamwork goes downhill with a union. "I'll tell my union on you" is common. What's the matter; can't talk for yourself? I've just never seen some nurses act the way this group does. I covered at a GM plant once and during my shift guys were coming in with sore backs and scrapped knuckles. I asked the nurse that worked there full time if this happened everyday. She said it did. I told her that if these guys were out fishing and got a hook in their hand they would just get another beer and get their buddy to pull it out with a pair of plyers and keep on fishing!

A charge nurse called me up to her unit a few weeks ago. When I got there four nurses were sitting at the nurses station charting. The charge nurse told me that a CNA from the previous shift had left a bunch of patients wet and that the CNAs were not answering call lights. One CNA heard her and told her that they were trying to catch up and didn't have time to answer the call lights. I told the nurses that charting could wait and that the patients came first. I then went and helped the CNAs catch up till they told me they had it under control. Course I wrote the lazy, not very bright, nurses up. Where is common sense today? The things CNAs told me during the strike about the nurses didn't make me feel good to be a nurse. Many CNAs cried when we left.

That's just a few of my union issues.

zenman · Jul 8, 2004

Posted by me: Shamans say the the world is as you dream it. After a short nap before my 12 hr shift, I went downstairs and my cute little blonde wife greeted me with, "I got some pizza for you!" Life is so sweet!

So, on one of my many trips to the ED tonight, the staff says, "Hey Randy, want some pizza?" I've got to dream of something else! :rotfl:

RNIAM, BSN, RN · Jul 8, 2004

I am so happy that I will be taking my first job at a unionized hospital. I will become an active union member. I would never cross a picket line.

Dixiedi · Jul 8, 2004

I sat and read every post in this thread top to bottom. There towards the end, I noticed a lot of reference to other employees slaries.

I had read not too long ago an article about CEOs and their wages. Took a few minutes to see if I could find it without luck, but I did find this rather interesting article. It will prove my point that we lowly workers should not be concerned with what the CEO makes. His/her job is so far removed from how we look at management positions that it's not even comparable to our job or even the job of the DON. The CEO lives in a totally different world than we do. (Though through many family contacts I have had dinner and attended a few weddings with CEOs of some very large companies and find they are usually just regular people. Still, they just do not work in the same world we do.)

First, here's a quick quote from the article I found extremely interesting.

[QOUTE]

"Why executives should be paid more than they deserve

If workers are paid their marginal product its difficult to understand why some CEOs are paid such high wages. But think of the CEO's wage as a prize. Valuable prizes make everyone else work hard in order to become the CEO. With this model, the tournament model (JSTOR) of Lazear and Rosen, it may even make sense that CEO wages go up as profits go down. After all, shouldn't prizes be set highest when motivation is most required? No doubt, some will see this argument as more proof that economists are just shills for the capitalist class.

[/QOUTE]

Here's the link. Follow the links as presented, it's really very interesting.

http://www.marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2003/09/why_its_good_to.html

Euskadi1946 · Jul 8, 2004

Keep laughing cause you're going nowhere. Nurses, considering their numbers, are basically impotent. You are aware of that are you? How many nurses are there? How many are not working in nursing? How many are in unions? You're fighting little isolated battles all over. You have to look at the big picture. You want me to hand you the answer? No!! I don't have a "blanket" criticism of unions; they are just better ways. Think outside the box. Be creative. I took a senator out to lunch once as a registered nurse to tell him about some EMS issues. I asked a hospital CEO, when I had only been at a hospital about 3 weeks, if he would buy pizza for all the staff cause we were working our butts off. His eyes glazed over, probably cause no one had ever asked him that before and his answer, "Oh, ok!" Lots of pizza arrived shortly thereafter. :rotfl:

And I suppose you want a medal for asking the CEO for pizzas?? We nurses don't want pizza, we want decent nurse/patient ratios, decent working conditions, decent benefits. Decent pay is an absolute plus too. Pizzas will always be available to us. The same problems will exist after they have been eaten!!

RNPATL, DNP, RN · Jul 8, 2004

Very good post.

Thank you. I am not as good at the quoting as you are in your replies, so I will just provide a brief comment. And I appreciated your respectful reply.

I agree that unions should not be the voice of the nurse. I think the voice of the nurse should be an organization that represents nurses as a whole. There is not an organization of this nature that exists. People will say that the ANA is that organization, but as a staff nurse, I do not see anything on the local or national level that the ANA is doing for me and my plight as a staff nurse.

I think all nurses should get involved with a professional organization that is focused on lobbying for the interest of quality patient care and better overall conditions for nurses.

Randy - like you and many others on this board, I do not know what the answer is. I wish I had the answer and I really wish that as a group of professionals, we could use our nurmbers and strength to mandate change. If nurses came together as one united group and demanded change, we literally could bring health care to its knees. However, far to many nurses are scared to have a voice because they have been beaten down by managers and administrators. Many nurses, while jobs are plentiful, are afraid to speak up for fear of losing their jobs. These are real issues and real fears of nurses. Better to shut up and put up. However, today, I believe the crisis in health care is growing to such a point, that even the nurses that have shut up and put up over the years are now becoming more concerned and are voicing their concerns. Management continues to not listen and it is business as usual for them. While unions may not be the answer (and I do agree with you on this) .... it is a start for nurses. We need advocacy for our profession and we need a way to start.

It is a tough question, with no real great answers, but it is worth the effort to explore and discover different opinions of the subject.

It my hope and dream that one day nurses will be a united front and can truly advocate not only for their patient, but for their profession. Perhaps, one day, in my professional career, or at least before I die, I can see this to a reality. Perhaps. :)

movealong · Jul 8, 2004

Very good post.
But is it the "most wise" decision for "all" concerned? That's one point I want to stress.
Why is it our only voice...I wonder?
Are we using power in the most effective manner?
Unions do have their place.
Like I said earlier, hospitals are not breeding grounds for creativity and most probably deserve what happens to them.
True, but there are several issues here. Is the CEO being paid a fair wage in regards to his peers? If so, are we to fault him for his fair salary? We have our opinions on the matter.. I think the president of Chysler could have kept a few factories running with his obscene salary instead of putting people out of work. I think that I personally would put money back into my people because I could surely survive on just a few million a year!! But...someone is trying to please shareholders!
Yep, something's wrong with the system.
Why is this?
Sorry, no blanket statement intended. Some of the nurses are great and I respect their clinical ability. Others...well, I'm trying to stay healthy and out of the hospital. I'm still dealing with some of these nurses as they do not meet the ability of others I have worked with. I think staffing stayed the same. Mandatory OT was an issue as was retirement plan, grievances, etc.. Wages went up. As I said earlier, some of the travelers wondered why they were striking. My personal feeling is that all problems are managements fault. One CEO told me that if his hospital fell down because it was on an earthquake fault line, it would be his fault because he didn't check it out!
No problem there. What really irks me is that nurses "have" to depend on unions. I don't see the union leaders forgoing their salary while the nurses are doing without. Retirement...set up your own. Never depend on a company's retirement plan. Some companies go under. Have your eggs in more than one basket. From what I understand the union here didn't let the nurses know till the night before that the strike was on. Now the union is in a shambles. Lawsuits, top people getting the boot, all kinds of problems. This is what nurses consider their voice??? I think unions, in my experience foster a certain dependency. I left my mother and was in the Army 3 days after graduating from high school. If I want something, I'll go ask for it. I don't need a go-between and have never had one except for when my ex-wife got after me with a mean lawyer! I think overall teamwork goes downhill with a union. "I'll tell my union on you" is common. What's the matter; can't talk for yourself? I've just never seen some nurses act the way this group does. I covered at a GM plant once and during my shift guys were coming in with sore backs and scrapped knuckles. I asked the nurse that worked there full time if this happened everyday. She said it did. I told her that if these guys were out fishing and got a hook in their hand they would just get another beer and get their buddy to pull it out with a pair of plyers and keep on fishing!
A charge nurse called me up to her unit a few weeks ago. When I got there four nurses were sitting at the nurses station charting. The charge nurse told me that a CNA from the previous shift had left a bunch of patients wet and that the CNAs were not answering call lights. One CNA heard her and told her that they were trying to catch up and didn't have time to answer the call lights. I told the nurses that charting could wait and that the patients came first. I then went and helped the CNAs catch up till they told me they had it under control. Course I wrote the lazy, not very bright, nurses up. Where is common sense today? The things CNAs told me during the strike about the nurses didn't make me feel good to be a nurse. Many CNAs cried when we left.
That's just a few of my union issues.

Sorry but not everyone's experience is the same. I was a union nurse for 13 years. Never once did I hear anything remotely similiar to " I'll tell the union on you".

Nobody ran to the union for any or every little thing. We had good relationships with our supervisors in most cases. The nurses were great. Many nurses were there for years (because of the union) so we all knew each other and worked well together. We knew most other personnel from other depts too. They were intellient and hard working nurses.

We knew the higher ups from way back before the system got so large. Heck we used to eat with them. But when management refused to come to the table to even talk about a contract offer, what do you do? Things have since changed. They are still unionized but management changed and for the better. Some of the nurses benefits are tied into how the company is doing, and that makes sense. You want the company you work for to do well, and you'll work hard to make sure it does. It made the nurses a real part of the system.

Unions don't make bad nurses.

I was a union nurse for years and proud of it. I have a great work ethic, that's how I was raised. And I really do not care if someone calls me a blue collar worker or not. It mmakes no difference to me. I know what I am, whatever label anyone would wish to assign me. Doesn't change who I am, or what I do.

zenman · Jul 9, 2004

Posted by RNPATL: Thank you. I am not as good at the quoting as you are in your replies, so I will just provide a brief comment. And I appreciated your respectful reply.

You're welcome. You are a role model for others on this board.

I agree that unions should not be the voice of the nurse. I think the voice of the nurse should be an organization that represents nurses as a whole. There is not an organization of this nature that exists. People will say that the ANA is that organization, but as a staff nurse, I do not see anything on the local or national level that the ANA is doing for me and my plight as a staff nurse.

You got it!!

I think all nurses should get involved with a professional organization that is focused on lobbying for the interest of quality patient care and better overall conditions for nurses.

Yes, yes, yes!!!

Randy - like you and many others on this board, I do not know what the answer is. I wish I had the answer and I really wish that as a group of professionals, we could use our nurmbers and strength to mandate change. If nurses came together as one united group and demanded change, we literally could bring health care to its knees.

I think you do have the answer! Whew, my work here is done! You may now take over. I'm 53 and basically bored with Western medicine. Practicing and teaching Zen Shiatsu is one of my greatest pleasures. It is so much fun to teaching a healing art that is healing for both patient and practitioner. I do incorporate the nursing process into my practice so I do stay in touch. Soon as I get my school up, I'll be out of the hospital. Luckily, there are people like you can see clearly and will be there to take care of me.

LAWS are there for the benefit of the majority. Power, money and politics (whether you like it or not) rule. Fighting little battles over the place is not very effective. Work on a national level.

However, far to many nurses are scared to have a voice because they have been beaten down by managers and administrators. Many nurses, while jobs are plentiful, are afraid to speak up for fear of losing their jobs. These are real issues and real fears of nurses. Better to shut up and put up.

A real shift occurred with me a long time ago when I adopted a "I'll keep my bags packed" attitude. A lot of tension about my job left. I'f I'm fired today, I'll say, "Thank you. I'll now be taking a vacation." There is usually many places for us to go. Being desperate about losing a job is not a pretty thing.

It is a tough question, with no real great answers, but it is worth the effort to explore and discover different opinions of the subject.
It my hope and dream that one day nurses will be a united front and can truly advocate not only for their patient, but for their profession. Perhaps, one day, in my professional career, or at least before I die, I can see this to a reality. Perhaps.

You have shown great insight and the ability to discuss the issue by staying on track. You probably even understand my pizza comments! You are probably wasting your time working as a nurse. Maybe you could do more good if we could call you "Senator!" You may now take over. On my last day at one hospital, I asked (I know; I get so much just my asking), the CEOs admin assistant if she would do me a favor. So, as I walked out the lobby of the hospital, I heard overhead "Randall Sexton has now left the building!" :rotfl: :rotfl:

RNPATL, DNP, RN · Jul 9, 2004

Thank you Randy .... I have often thought about running for office and perhaps one day you will see a sign that says Vote for RNPATL for State Senator or Governor or maybe even President.

leslie :-D · Jul 9, 2004

If nurses came together as one united group and demanded change, we literally could bring health care to its knees. However, far to many nurses are scared to have a voice because they have been beaten down by managers and administrators. Many nurses, while jobs are plentiful, are afraid to speak up for fear of losing their jobs. These are real issues and real fears of nurses. Better to shut up and put up. However, today, I believe the crisis in health care is growing to such a point, that even the nurses that have shut up and put up over the years are now becoming more concerned and are voicing their concerns. Management continues to not listen and it is business as usual for them. While unions may not be the answer (and I do agree with you on this) .... it is a start for nurses. We need advocacy for our profession and we need a way to start.

i am proposing that there is a strong correlation between the horizontal violence amongst nurses and the evident inability of nurses to voice their discontents to mgmt.

it compares to one of those times that my don told me that "i act like a man in that if something bothers me, i take care of it: when something bothers a woman, they just complain amongst each other." perhaps if we collectively voiced our dissatisfaction with our higher ups, rather than with each other, the feeling of empowerment would drastically reduce the way that nursing so scathingly treats each other.

leslie

teeituptom, BSN, RN · Jul 9, 2004

And I suppose you want a medal for asking the CEO for pizzas?? We nurses don't want pizza, we want decent nurse/patient ratios, decent working conditions, decent benefits. Decent pay is an absolute plus too. Pizzas will always be available to us. The same problems will exist after they have been eaten!!

along with a little gas also :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

husker-nurse, LPN, LVN · Jul 9, 2004

and now for my last question; isnt Huang Po what I ordered at the Chinese place the other night? (maybe a little chuckle is in order here!). To quote a very famous man "Can't we all just get along?" United we stand.......