No boundaries with staff

himilayaneyes · Apr 30, 2011

What's the purpose of being in management if you're not afforded the power to make changes...whether it be in policy or in the staff. You can't always be the nice guy...someone is going to complain no matter how great you are. Do the best you can...take it up with your manager....or find a new gig.

NurseHopefulInOH · Apr 30, 2011

Honest advice: quit. No job is worth your happyness or life. I am never one to advocate being a "quitter" but seriously.... a job is a job but you only have one life. Other option. Sit everyone down and talk it out ie. what needs to change and how you as a team are going to do it. Take suggestions so they feel heard and work on what you all can do to change. Perhaps they feel threatened and unheard or just flat out want to cause drama. Jelousy is also a factor. Make them feel like part of the solution and as is you need their imput.

tyvin, BSN, RN · Apr 30, 2011

It's like trying to be a friend to your kids; they don't need a friend they need a parent who sets boundaries and makes the rules...same thing; your mistake was trying to be their friend. Sorry this happened to you; we learn as we go.

CompleteUnknown · Apr 30, 2011

I am a newer nurse manager (as you probably got from my rants on other posts) and I am at my end with my staff.
#1- The secretary sends all "medical" calls or questions to me- I gave her some guidelines on how to screen calls/people who show up and so she retaliated by not taking messages. We have other nurses there too who play that game with me.
#2- I have a constant stream of employees who just barge into my office to sit and complain about stuff all day long.
They do not have any solutions on their own and this has really hindered my productivity- basically I can't do my job. When I have tried to set boundaries, they will call on the phone or follow me around when I go out on the floor.
#3- I have people who are my staff inform me "how" I should do my job, how they know more than I do, how I am supposed to be doing X,Y,Z because they "have been there longer" but I was hired to FIX IT and they do not hold the experience or education that I do.
#4- I have no support from upper management to write up employees, follow through with disciplinary action, or to change behaviors.
When I came onboard with this job, I tried to be the "nice" boss- such as I rewarded staff with buying coffees, pizza, taking the time to recognize outstanding work, etc. I can no longer; now I am the "bad guy" who wants to fire all of them and I have even gotten threats that "they" are going to run me out because I have made changes.
I am so stressed out that I have found myself forgetting words, forgetting commitments, actually not hearing someone standing in front of me speaking, and generally having no sense of humor or interest in life anymore.
Anyone have suggestions? I am open- and believe me I have tried to go elsewhere but it isn't that easy where I live.

Hi shouldabeenabarista, sounds like a horrible situation. Here's some of my thoughts, if you decide to stay.

Take a deep breath! You sound so stressed that absolutely everything seems impossible. If you haven't already made a list of what needs to be fixed, do so now. Once you've done that you can start to prioritise, some things are more important than others and some of the less important things will begin to fall into place once other issues start to come under control. Stop trying to be the nice boss, aim for being the fair boss.

1. Make it clear to the secretary that you won't tolerate her behaviour. Give crystal clear guidelines on what you want and speak to her about it every single time she does her passive aggressive thing. Don't get drawn into an argument, just quietly remind her of what you want. She'll get sick of that game if you can stay calm, take the higher ground, and wait her out.

2. While it's great to have an open door policy it seems at the moment you might need to put some restictions on it. Let the staff know you'll be available for an hour in the morning and an hour in the afternoon (or whatever you think) and when your door is closed that you're not to be disturbed for anything other than an emergency. Let your phone go to voice mail at times. If you're truly needed they'll come get you, trust me.

3. Recognise that the staff have indeed been there longer, and many of them may actually have some good ideas. Try to get these people involved in being part of the solution, ask them if they want to take the lead on helping to address a particular problem. Get them to come back to you with some suggestions, you might be surprised with what some of them come up with. Warning: don't give anyone the power to actually implement anything until they've shown they've got the skills and a bit of common sense. Just ask them to come back to you with suggestions at this stage.

4. This is harder. You'll have to toughen up and stay firm and make sure the staff know you mean what you say. Don't let yourself get drawn into petty carry-on and drama. You run the risk of appearing just as immature as the drama queens or 'taking sides' by being manipulated into misunderstanding the situation. Your stand should be 'this is the policy and this is what I want, now please go and do it'. You can lighten up a little later on when you have a better understanding of the dynamics.

Bring a lunch to work with you and make sure you eat it, even if has to be at your desk. Make sure you drink plenty of water. And lastly (I read in the other thread that you smoke), and I can say this because I'm a smoker too, stop smoking at work. It really doesn't look good to be running out for a ciggie every now and then and the more stressed you are, the more you keep thinking 'god I need a smoke'. It's not actually as hard as it sounds once you set your mind to it. Smoke all you like at home (it's what I do) but keep it out of work.

Like the others have said, it might be better for your sanity and peace of mind to leave and look for something else but if you can't do that at the moment, or if you decide to stay until you can get another job, here's hoping there's something in there that might help. :)

WIN007 · Apr 30, 2011

I am a newer nurse manager (as you probably got from my rants on other posts) and I am at my end with my staff.
#1- The secretary sends all "medical" calls or questions to me- I gave her some guidelines on how to screen calls/people who show up and so she retaliated by not taking messages. We have other nurses there too who play that game with me.
#2- I have a constant stream of employees who just barge into my office to sit and complain about stuff all day long.
They do not have any solutions on their own and this has really hindered my productivity- basically I can't do my job. When I have tried to set boundaries, they will call on the phone or follow me around when I go out on the floor.
#3- I have people who are my staff inform me "how" I should do my job, how they know more than I do, how I am supposed to be doing X,Y,Z because they "have been there longer" but I was hired to FIX IT and they do not hold the experience or education that I do.
#4- I have no support from upper management to write up employees, follow through with disciplinary action, or to change behaviors.
When I came onboard with this job, I tried to be the "nice" boss- such as I rewarded staff with buying coffees, pizza, taking the time to recognize outstanding work, etc. I can no longer; now I am the "bad guy" who wants to fire all of them and I have even gotten threats that "they" are going to run me out because I have made changes.
I am so stressed out that I have found myself forgetting words, forgetting commitments, actually not hearing someone standing in front of me speaking, and generally having no sense of humor or interest in life anymore.
Anyone have suggestions? I am open- and believe me I have tried to go elsewhere but it isn't that easy where I live.

:twocents:

It may be a natural human tendancy to test the boundaries of a new manager. You can keep record of the messages the sec. doesn't give you and continue to. Staff can be given your available conference hours without interuption unless it's for non-urgent/clinical matters. Doors can be shut.

#4 is what I think is the crux of the matter. You are describing the classic "accountability without authority" dilemma. Was this a problem for the manager before you? If so IMO it's time to sit down come-to-Jesus conversation with your manager and tell her you can't do what needs to be done with the without whatever specific authorities you are lacking. Be prepared and specific. As part of the conversation you may wish to request she accompany you to a meeting with the director of HR, CNO and whatever other stakeholders that may need to grant and/or advise why they can't.

SilentfadesRPA · Apr 30, 2011

I so feel for you - I had this happen to me when I took a job and realized that there was no way out except one -

RESIGN

You say it all when you wrote #4I have no support from upper management to write up employees, follow through with disciplinary action, or to change behaviors.

Clearly the admin do not want you to be effective and have hired you for show or to think you possess a miraculous character about you. They have set you up for failure otherwise you would have been given the true management abilities to properly preform. Sounds like a horrific place to work - been there done that never will again. Start looking and sincerely hope you get out of there soon for YOUR SAKE.

Marc

nurse.sandi · Apr 30, 2011

Leave a paper trail. Keep a journal. I think establishing a trusting rapport is very difficult. I do not think resigning is the answer. Stand your ground. Just my opinion. If you resign you will be another nurse looking for work.

Better yet.. I have seen a whole lot of nurses on this site who probably would love to work under you and be gracious and thank you. Try and stay focused and breathe. Good luck.

**canoehead, BSN, RN** · Apr 30, 2011

Boundaries!!! Have them.

Be clear on what behavior is acceptable and not, including giving messages, interrupting your work, etc. Be clear, so that your good employees know when and how to come to you, and to stop the gossips. Maybe if you promote email as the best method of communication...it provides a written record, people need to think before they speak, and you can choose your moment to review it.

Expect your boss to back up your boundaries, send them a memo about the basic rules you will be enforcing, say you expect their support, and wait for the reply. What you get back will tell you if you should stay or go.

mindlor · Apr 30, 2011

I was in a similar position in a non nursing industry. I had a prestigious job working for a big company. The money was huge.

But you know what...it was killing me physically, emotionaly and spiritually.

I was working 16 hour days 7 days a week. my staff was horrible and those above me were even worse. Graft, corruption, the whole nine yards....

That is when I re-examined my life and walked away from that job. People thought I was crazy....

I am now in nursing school and slowly but surely my soul is detoxifying.....

The physical cancer that I was diagnosed with at a very early stage is gone, and I am very much enjoying caring for my patients...

I guess my point is, as many post before me have suggested is that we alone are responsible for our happiness and life is fleeting...

Please do what you must to to be happy and well.

Peace and Joy to you

RNAM1965 · Apr 30, 2011

Hi,

I work pretty closely with my nurse manager (charge nurse, preceptor, help with education) and I really respect her for the hard decisions and the time she puts into our unit every day , night, weekend, holiday, whether she is physically there or not.

IT sounds to me like a lot of your staff need a reality check. I think you can reward good behaviors, buy pizzas, etc but also I wouldn't take any BS from those complaining staffers. Nurses are great at complaining, but they can (and should) be part of the solution too. You can't fix everything for everyone and it is not realistic. For instance, my manager has said that no one is allowed to bring problems forward without offering possible solutions. We are expected to participate in PI projects. I know sometimes people need to "vent" but it can go too far. Too much venting brings everyone down. Maybe they need therapy or a hobby or some other techniques to dealt with the stess of the job. You know, it really isn't okay to come to work and complain all day. It really isn't. Our institution actually has rules and behavior standards that address this. It is too bad your facility does not have anything like this.

I would look at your facility's disciplinary policy from HR. That secretary should have been told in writing what is expected, if doesn't follow through, put in writing and have her sign it. If her behavior continues, cut her loose. Same for those staff nurses with the passive aggressive behaviors. Call the on the specific actions and let them know it is not acceptable. There has to be consequences for actions that are disruptive and interfere with productivity and decrease morale. Your #4 statement about lack of support from upper management is disturbing. Is there anyone in HR you can talk to? Anyone who handles disciplinary issues? Can you find specific policy violations and talk to your upper managers about how the staff's behaviors/actions are violating an HR policy? I know our hospital has a Employee Relations rep who managers and staff call for disciplinary related matters and she advises appropriate actions. I know this person exists because my manager consults this person before suspending or terminating an employee, or she calls for advice before writing someone up. I know this because she has told me that many times that person in HR has advised her to fire someone when she just wants to write up or suspend them. I also know this because sometimes some of our troublemakers at work run to HR when they are mad about a write up and HR usually sets that employee straight real fast.

Now I am sure you are like my manager, she wants people to know what actions and behaviors are not acceptable and she wants to teach poeple a better way and for them to learn from their mistakes. She writes up a lot and really does't have to do much firing. Sometimes you only need to fire one to send a message that BS will not be tolerated. Everyone has a job to do and needs to do it and not waste time on the passive aggressive BS.

You can be on your staff's side and still not put up the crap. Maybe your nurses don't know it's not okay to act the way they do? Maybe they need to be told. Only in nursing do we tolerate garbage from staff and tolerate policy violations. No other industry puts up with it. A lot of what you are describing comes down to insubordination and in most companies and workplaces that is a terminable offense--no questions asked you are out the door for refusing to do what you are instructed to do by a manager. If that's not okay in a business office, why is it okay in healthcare where the stakes are higher and the consequences can be deadly? I think because we are nurses and at heart most of us want to nuture. Part of nuturing people is showing them the right way and taking action to get them back on the right way, or move them out and let them be someone else's problem.

These staffers who think they know more than you, I would thank them for their ideas and ask them in what way they will particpate in the solution (not sure if their ideas are valid or not based on your post) but be clear with them that you are the manager and at the end of the day, YOU are the one who is ultimately held responsible for upholding standards and regulations and maintaining a safe place for patients to recieve care. Your responsibility is not to make staff happy. You can help them feel good about what they do by rewarding good work but also have to deal with those who are getting in the way of reaching goals and disrupting workplace.

As far as the threats, I would find the biggest ringleader and get them out of there. They are jeopardizing your chances of being an effective manager and poisoning the culture of your workplace. You have got to nip that in the bud right away!! How dare a staff member threaten you? That makes me so mad! There is a lot of literature out there about stuff like this. I imagine you have very little free time but search for lit on nursing management because it is not the same as general business management. For some reason, in healthcare we have put up with rude and aggressive nurses AND docotors and passive aggressive staff, and that is why so many nursing units are toxic and people say "nurses eat their young". In no other industry would any of that be put up with.

Our CEO of our hospital went to a big national conference years ago and the topic was nurse managers and basically he was told that the success of any hospital rests on the effectiveness and competency and the training and retention of the nurse managers. It is typically a high turnover job for the same reasons that are stressing you out. We see it on here this forum all time, my fellow nurses bashing managers all the time but I bet none of them have a clue what their managers do. I bet none of them work nearly as hard as their managers. Nurse managers--especially new ones-- always want to prove themselves and come out and do patient care to help staff, but do staff ever help their manager? Do they offer solutions? Do they take responsibility for everyone else's actions or inactions?

Please please don't sacrifice your health and sanity because you have staff with no boundaries. That is one of the many things wrong with a lot of nursing environments. You set the boundaries, you are the manager. Hold everyone accountable for the quality of their work and for their behavior. Reward the good too. I'm sure your nurses are working hard---the work is hard. But guess what? Everyone is working hard in healthcare, not just nurses. We have to work together and if people can't work together and are getting in the way of you doing your job and sabotaging your efforts, they need to go.

I wish you the best of luck. I really love working with my nurse manager because she has done alot to improve the environment. Our quality has improved and our staffs' competencies have improved. That has made it easier for the rest of us experienced nurses to focus onthe next level of improving outcomes and reaching goals, She is fun and nuturing and goes out of her way to help most staff, and frankly alot of the time poeple don't appreciate it, but the people you talked about in your post, your problem staff, our manager turned some of them around and she encouraged some of them to leave if they couldn't get on board. It sounds harsh but what is happening to you isn't right, isn't fair, isn't productive, and is part of what is wrong in nursing.

You have the hardest job in the hospital--the nurse manager. You will never make everyone happy. It's not your job to make everyone happy. I like one person's post to keep a journal. ANd what another said is true--you are being tested. You can be kind and supportive but also tough and firm. ( I know, did someone forget to assign you your Superwoman cape?) I know I am not a manager but I work on hospital committees and work with my manager, other managers and educators, and our staff , and I have seen so much of this over the years. The truly bad ones you are talking about, the insubordinates, the passive aggressives, the threatening ones . . . they are not usually the ones participating in anything and are probably always going to miserable, probably don't have a clue as to what it takes to run a unit or a hospital, and probably drag down the morale of your good people. Do your good people a favor and push back with the bad ones.

God Bless you--will be praying for you! I really love the advice from "CompleteUnknown" she/he said it much better than I. I guess I am old and cranky and tired of all the BS all the way around!

ferretface · Apr 30, 2011

You're the boss, you need to set the boundaries. Make rules & make them apply equally to EVERYone. Don't ignore problems, DEAL w/them. It might also behoove you to take some managerial classes & assertiveness training. Stop letting your staff manipulate you. You are the boss, not their BFF!! I had a manager like you once, she was everybody's friend at first, but when she ignored problems w/staff-- such as serious med errors, non-productivity, etc. she became the enemy b/c she didn't deal w/things. You can be firm & have a structured work environment w/out being a tyrant. Most important, don't blame them for your failings, you have to set the tone & be consistent.