New Slant on ADN vs BSN: are ADN programs anti-intellectual?

[NurseFirst]

I was preparing some med sheets that a group of my classmates and I made up for the medications we were given as likely meds to be given.

While doing this, I learned an interesting fact: that if the urine is alkaline, up to 80% of ASA would be eliminated from the body, compared to 2-3% if it is acidotic (according to Davis' Drug Guide for Nurses).

When I shared this with the lab instructor, she swept her hand over the mannikins and said "Where would I need to know that?"

I then shared it with the 1st term instructor, who also teaches pharmacology, who also seemed to shine it on as like "why would you need to know that?"

After being lectured by the lab instructor some time after this event, she as much as said that I was confusing other students by asking "tangential" questions in class. (For me, the questions help me to form a bigger picture.)

She said, surely I must have been told this in other classes? I have a long history of education and many many units, and I said--"No, I've never been told that before I entered nursing school." (In fact, I've been told as much that I am "selfish" for asking questions.)

Another pharmacology teacher put down several foreign students who said that activated charcoal was used in their country as an anti-emetic, for indigestion--she told them that if someone took activated charcoal it would cause them to vomit (not true). How activated charcoal works was eventually brought up by another instructor who assured us that activated charcoal was not an emetic.

While we are told our ADN program has an excellent reputation, these kinds of responses bother me. I always learn better when I know MORE, because I understand how everything works.

I feel like my school and I have different educational philosophies.

Are all nursing schools like this? Is it more prevalent among ADN programs? I am a bit disappointed, to say the least.

Thanks,

NurseFirst

[NurseFirst]

although the information may be important, regardless of whether it is a adn or bsn program i rather doubt you will get into the metabolic processes of many medications to the point that this would be a major discussion area.

that little factoid is a major discussion area? i'm a bit dumbfounded by your response. they certainly tested us to know that an asa od causes metabolic acidosis.

i think speaking to your instructor after class and having a in-depth discussion regarding this is very appropriate, but classtime is usually very structured because of the amount of information they have to get through.

how is that different from any other academic class? that sounds soooo much like the "party line" to me--almost like a knee-jerk response. in, perhaps the most contradictory activity to that party line was the instructor who decided it was too beautiful a day to have lecture, and for everyone to read the topic in our books.

so this just wasnt a major topic she felt she needed to delve into at the time. and rightly so, it would have taken a major portion of her classtime trying to clearify things for other students that werent as intrested in it as you.

i spent over 4 years working in administrative staff in an e.r., i had the opportunity to see asa ods. to me, it sounded like a fact that just might save somebody's life some day. (most tragically, i happened to see a 16 year old who wanted to get back at her mother and swallowed a bunch of asa as a "suicidal gesture" (not real intent)--who died anyway, in spite of that.) again, i don't see how this little factoid would have taken a major part of class time.

what i might suggest is that if there is a topic that you feel the need to immerse yourself in, you continue your education to include that as a field of specialty. i know of a person that was so intrigued by cardiac phisiology she continued and got a phd in it. she taught adn's and was the best instructor you could have asked for to teach cardiac units.

meownsmile,

i have read many of your posts before, and have enjoyed them. but here, you (and smilingblueeyes, whose posts i've also enjoyed) come across speaking some kind of weird "edu-speak" (altho' sbe a little less so.) your last paragraph is also a kind of "all or nothing" thinking that glosses over the issue without really addressing the immediate problem.

thank you all for your responses.

nursefirst

[SmilingBluEyes]

"weird edu-speak"? I am baffled by that one.

[NurseFirst]

"weird edu-speak"? i am baffled by that one.

speaking from a phrase-book for teachers and educators. a corresponding phrase book can be found for people who are in aa, or in therapy, or even medicine. for instance, in the movie "same time next year" alan alda was speaking in such a way that the woman said (laughingly) "so when did you go into therapy?".

it's just like the phrase you used: "i am going to ask you politely". it sounds like some kind of phrase that someone who is restraining their anger would say. why do you have to say it like that? why couldn't you have said what you said later, that "i ... had major concerns with the title of your thread. it will rub some of us (not just adn grads, but those who teach in these programs)--- the wrong way"

simple, straightforward, states where you are coming from. the other comes across as a bit of a put-down--that somehow i should automatically know where you are coming from.

hope that makes it a bit clearer, anyway.

thanks again,

nursefirst

[zenman]

I always learn better when I know MORE, because I understand how everything works.

NurseFirst

Knowledge is power and your inquiring mind is a good thing to have. However, sometimes one has to get the knowledge on their own so don't stop learning.

[RN4NICU, LPN, LVN]

good advice, zen

[CCU NRS]

I didn't read all posts, but here is my 2 cents.

I have had instructors that are very great at teaching anything you want to learn and will openly admit that they don't have the information but will look into it and usually find it.

I have had instructors that seemed to not really care one way or the other ifyou learn anything as long as you strictly adhere to their program and follow their teahcing plans and come to the conclusions they are looking for on the tests.

Just an example. I had an instructor in my ADN program who had a Masters Degree and her entire hang up was psychosocial intervention. On every care plan and every case study she was overly concerned with the psychosocial development and what we did to pursue what their psychosocial health was. She thought that every student should discuss the religious preferences of every patient in deep detail and follow this path toward their health. She was way off, she didn't follow the entire picture and she focused narrowly on one aspect that most directly concerned her. She was a Jewish female married to a Rabbi.

You will find like in any situation there are all kinds of people in every walk of life. I would not be to concerned that your pharmocology class didn't focus on every aspect of every med and even if you find an important SE or interaction and they are not aware of it, it is good that you have noticed it and you can log it away in your memo banks and then you can keep it for furture reference.

I don't know what type of program you are in if you are Paramedic/LPN to ADN or if you have never worked in the medical field and are going into nursing fresh, but what I would say is just learn all you can and at the same time provide the instrucotr with the info they are seeking and you will be fine.

[obeyacts2]

I think you made them look bad by sharing information they didn't know. Sounds more like an ego problem than an ADN vs. BSN problem. How irritating to stifle learning.

Keep learning, keep sharing and keep a curious mind. Don't let the trolls bring you down.

I agree!!!!!! I have already had a similar experience and I havent even started clinical yet! I asked a teacher a question regarding the electrical conduction system of the heart: if a patient is in PEA, what area of the heart is firing? He didnt KNOW what PEA was!!!!! I was horrified! And he was embarassed and copped some serious attitude. Well, you want to teach about cardiac conductio, better know your stuff. At least I didnt ask in front of the class tho :rotfl:

Laura

[Sheri257]

While we are told our ADN program has an excellent reputation, these kinds of responses bother me. I always learn better when I know MORE, because I understand how everything works.

I feel like my school and I have different educational philosophies.

Are all nursing schools like this? Is it more prevalent among ADN programs? I am a bit disappointed, to say the least.

I would say it's your particular ADN program or, even those particular instructors. My ADN program has taught the above mentioned material and we've been tested on it. There hasn't any distinction between what you may actually "need" to know. The philosophy is that all knowledge will probably come in handy at some point. Of course, the big problem is having enough time to teach all of it.

[Spidey's mom, ADN, BSN, RN]

I was preparing some med sheets that a group of my classmates and I made up for the medications we were given as likely meds to be given.

While doing this, I learned an interesting fact: that if the urine is alkaline, up to 80% of ASA would be eliminated from the body, compared to 2-3% if it is acidotic (according to Davis' Drug Guide for Nurses).

Thanks,

NurseFirst

Please forgive what may be a stupid question - I've had 3 hours of sleep and took Benadryl and got up to go to work at 1:45 a.m. . . . . so . . .

By the time aspirin gets to your urine, isn't most of it already absorbed by the stomach and intestinal tract? What would it matter if your urine is acidotic or alkalotic unless aspirin is primarily absorbed while it is in your bladder? Or unless you were taking megadoses . . .

Thanks.

steph

[Tweety, BSN, RN]

"weird edu-speak"? I am baffled by that one.

You didn't give the answer the op wanted to here and sounds like the op is nitpicking a bit.

[Tweety, BSN, RN]

Steph, you're right ASA is aborbed by the GI tract fairly rapidly and and it's metabolites excreted in the urine. This might be important to know if you have patients with liver and/or kidney problems, or in an overdose situation.

I'm just thinking off the top of my head. I'm a bit nervous about including any edu-speak. :rotfl:

[Spidey's mom, ADN, BSN, RN]

Steph:

Yeeess? :)

steph