New Slant on ADN vs BSN: are ADN programs anti-intellectual?

[NurseFirst]

I was preparing some med sheets that a group of my classmates and I made up for the medications we were given as likely meds to be given.

While doing this, I learned an interesting fact: that if the urine is alkaline, up to 80% of ASA would be eliminated from the body, compared to 2-3% if it is acidotic (according to Davis' Drug Guide for Nurses).

When I shared this with the lab instructor, she swept her hand over the mannikins and said "Where would I need to know that?"

I then shared it with the 1st term instructor, who also teaches pharmacology, who also seemed to shine it on as like "why would you need to know that?"

After being lectured by the lab instructor some time after this event, she as much as said that I was confusing other students by asking "tangential" questions in class. (For me, the questions help me to form a bigger picture.)

She said, surely I must have been told this in other classes? I have a long history of education and many many units, and I said--"No, I've never been told that before I entered nursing school." (In fact, I've been told as much that I am "selfish" for asking questions.)

Another pharmacology teacher put down several foreign students who said that activated charcoal was used in their country as an anti-emetic, for indigestion--she told them that if someone took activated charcoal it would cause them to vomit (not true). How activated charcoal works was eventually brought up by another instructor who assured us that activated charcoal was not an emetic.

While we are told our ADN program has an excellent reputation, these kinds of responses bother me. I always learn better when I know MORE, because I understand how everything works.

I feel like my school and I have different educational philosophies.

Are all nursing schools like this? Is it more prevalent among ADN programs? I am a bit disappointed, to say the least.

Thanks,

NurseFirst

[Spidey's mom, ADN, BSN, RN]

I'm sure the op isn't this person either, but doesn't every class seem to have one? :chuckle I had a teacher who handled this very well, though. When asked something she didn't know the answer to or that didn't really apply to the lecture, she would tell the questioner to research it out and report next time. Those who were asking just to use up class time soon stopped and those genuinely interested in the subject would do the research and give a brief report (the teacher would help with resources). It was usually very interesting and useful.

We had a student like this too. Nice guy, I actually knew him from church. But kept asking questions that didn't apply to the lecture or went off in some odd direction. It got very frustrating and the teacher didn't handle it at all.

Some of us finally took him aside outside of class and gently had a conversation about the timing and all.

This does NOT pertain to the OP though - the word "tangential" just made me think of him.

steph

[NurseFirst]

nursefirst: i am sorry i was off-putting, as you put it. your thread title was and is very off-putting to me, too.

i apologize; i already identified, specifically, the phrase that was irksome to me, and why it was irksome.

it is indeed incendiary to me as an adn graduate. nevertheless, the challenge for you, as i said before, is what to do about your situation. (as you said, taking responsibility for one's own situation). i did acknowledge and recognize your problem. i made a reasonable suggestion to discuss it with your instructors and director as i used to do...... is that off-putting to you, as well?

no...as i mentioned above, i identified the specific phrase in another, earlier post, that bothered me, and why it bothered me.

if so, i humbly aologize. i honestly mean you no offense.

no apology necessary.

best regards,

nursefirst

[plsunnybee]

Well, my ADN Program did get into the "whys" and "hows" of nursing. We were not trained to be drone-like thoughtless skill-monkeys, but to function as RN's, even charge nurses and managers, in my program. We had a units and classes on management and health care business, even. Can you believe that? And EVERY skill, every task, every function was explained as to the "why" of it....every med we gave, we had BETTER be able to explain the pathophysiology and reason for it's use in a particular patient/case and we were constantly challenged to "think ahead" in most cases, and work out "in-case scenarios" to the point of exhaustion. Critical thinking was a very tired and exhausted "hallmark" of my program, words I got reallllly tired of hearing after 2 years. It was like a kitchy catch phrase you see in advertising.

Unless you have been through and seen *all* The AD programs, it's best not to judge or say in general what " ADN programs" are like, until you know. I am really tired of the generalizing we see here. You won't hear me say, "BSN nurses are less clinically capable", like some do. I know that is not true. "all" BSN programs don't "always" do this or that. I have seen EXCELLENT nurses from all 3 programs of study, all capable and performing critical thinking and managing well.

Please don't simply generalize and say "ADN programs are technical and not focused on critical thinking" or other such thing. That is NOT true. Why is it people look to make others defend their educational choices so MUCH on these boards? It does frustrate me, I am sorry.

To the OP, I am not picking on you----and I don't want to upset anyone here, but I again say, if this bothers you so much, tackle it at the source. It sounds to me you have a legitimate complaint. Your challenge is to DO something about it. Consider it an excellent lesson for later when you are a nurse. You are bound to see and be subjected to very aggravating and unfair situations, and your challenge then, will be what to do about it. Good luck.

Thank you, to everyone who replied to my post; I enjoyed reading your postings and agree that neither I nor anyone should generalize about any nursing program! I apologize if I offended any reader here, and certainly remember how distasteful it was to hear that "BSN nurses are less clinically capable", as a new grad. I have also known many nurses from excellent programs, and would be honored to be their patient! This reminds me how sad it is that nurses from different programs can sometimes be so critical of those from other programs, rather than bonding as fellow nurses. We can get so much more accomplished as a profession, if we can stop focusing on HOW we became RNs. Thanks, again, for taking the time to comment,

Peg

[sunnyjohn]

We had a student like this too. Nice guy, I actually knew him from church. But kept asking questions that didn't apply to the lecture or went off in some odd direction. It got very frustrating and the teacher didn't handle it at all.

Some of us finally took him aside outside of class and gently had a conversation about the timing and all.

This does NOT pertain to the OP though - the word "tangential" just made me think of him.

steph

"Took him outside?" Ya'll did a beat down in the parking lot, didn't ya'???

:chuckle

Agape...

[SmilingBluEyes]

EVERY class has ONE of those students, it seems, Steph. We had one who drove us nuts.I am not sure this is the case of the OP, however. I will give her the benefit of the doubt.

[Jo Dirt]

Sorry, I wasn't trying to start a war. I was just wondering if I should consider changing programs. I'm concerned that this "reputation" of mine is going to influence my future by limiting my choices in preceptorship and future positions. And I would like to know what other people's experiences are. This doesn't have to be gasoline on fire: we've had a pretty reasonable discussion re: Terry Schiavo. If I had such a low opinion of the other posters on this board to not be able to carry on a reasonable discussion, then I would not have posted it. The question was an honest question; not one to inspire incindiary (sp?) rhetoric. I'm sorry you feel that was what I was trying to do.

Honestly, I think you need to go get a dose of a BSN program. You will likely find there isn't a whole lot of differences in philosophies.

Personally, I think those questions you were harping on were kind of silly....like majoring in the minors.

Most nursing programs I know of are there to teach you to do a job, not ponder things that probably won't make a real difference in your line of work. Just the facts, Ma'am. They are there to teach you to, as Larry the Cable Guy says...Git R Done.

[kitty=^..^=cat]

I think that both ADN and BSN programs are (or should be) equally scientific and technical... I do know a couple of nursing instructors that have taught at both ADN and BSN programs, and I have seen them interact with their students while doing clinicals at my facility. They DO spend more time discussing pathophysiology, pharmacology and discharge planning with the BSN students than they ever did with the community college students. I don't believe it's the right thing to do, but it's the method of teaching that each has chosen to adopt. I do believe that the clinical competence and critical thinking of the students in both types of programs that we've had at our place are essentially the same.

I'm sure we could collect data, stratify the strengths and weaknesses of each type of program, create some nifty bar graphs and solve this ADN/BSN thing once and for all -- :chuckle

I think the difference is in the "other stuff" that BSN students take outside the nursing/scientific curriculum.

In my experience, it seems like the new hires that adapt the most quickly to the "big picture" are graduates that were a little "confused" along the road to nursing and piddled around in liberal arts or another course of study for awhile before deciding on a nursing career. They've taken a lot of classes, read a lot of books, interacted with lots of different kinds of people within a academic structure and are generally very well-rounded. Whether the nursing degree is ADN or BSN, I feel that education outside the nursing curriculum is meaningful and consistently makes a difference in the ability and adaptibility of the individual.