need some advice on getting family member medical attention against their will

ktwlpn, LPN · Aug 27, 2004

my uncle is a alcoholic for many years now, he has began swelling up face and legs, his legs now have 10 inch diameter open wounds on them 1 1/2 inch deep draining and yellow, he also has a hernia almost to his knees. he lives with my grandma and of course is not employed, won't sign for medicaid or any help, says he wants to die. my problem is i do not want my grandma too find him dead soon. is there any way we can get him medical attention without his consent? he can't keep any solids down, he's started throwing any food up. any info would be greatly appreciated
thanx

Your grandmom probably has a more healthy view of death then you do at this point in her life-I am sure she is very familiar with loss....She probably recognizes that your uncle has NEVER taken care of himself and it is right to choose to not so so now....It is also her choice to leave him there in her home-if his care is becoming to much for her maybe you can help her with it? Cook,clean,do the wash-maybe hire an aide a few hours a week to help with his basic needs if he will allow it...I'm with Mschrisco on this one and as I stated on the thread about the obese woman stuck to the couch....when the time comse just leave me alone in my own home until it's over...please

Angela Mac · Aug 27, 2004

Changing the subject for a moment-

APATHY, good point Leslie

Have you seen the new ads on t.v where they throw away desks & show kid's drawings. They count all the children city to city who have died from AIDS.

If we can't help those who can't/won't help themselves---who will?

Rhonda- I understand you posted this about your uncle. You are a nurse. You might be put on the spot, if he does not get medical attention. Don't mean to scare you.

leslie :-D · Aug 27, 2004

Changing the subject for a moment-
APATHY, good point Leslie
Have you seen the new ads on t.v where they throw away desks & show kid's drawings. They count all the children city to city who have died from AIDS.
If we can't help those who can't/won't help themselves---who will?
Rhonda- I understand you posted this about your uncle. You are a nurse. You might be put on the spot, if he does not get medical attention. Don't mean to scare you.

no angie, but we need to be informed as nurses, where our duty begins and ends.

i mean, isn't this almost like assisted suicide, just by our inactions?

i'm not specifically talking about rhonda and her uncle but as a general observation.

if people have the right to refuse to get help for themselves, knowing and even hoping that the outcome will be fatal, i would feel partially responsible, knowing that i just 'acknowledged' this person's right to refuse and that was it.

what if someone is very depressed and is not thinking clearly? and we all know that feeling of being depressed, in a rut, unmotivated...apathetic.

although many posters here are saying there are no legal implications, something in my head is telling me there's something missing; something's not right to just allow this.

leslie

Angela Mac · Aug 27, 2004

You are second guessing because you have sympathy as well as empathy.

I recently posted a thread because a family friend jumped off an overpass into oncoming traffic. Could it have been prevented? I think so, maybe if we all listened to what he was trying to tell everyone.

We hear alot of "that's not my patient", "I don't want to get involved", "cover your butt", "its your license," blah blah blah.

But if we know that if we don't report something when it is terribly wrong- how can we expect to make a difference?

Angela Mac · Aug 27, 2004

I left a few jobs that I could have made a career out of, because I could not walk around with blinders on.

That is what separates the good nurses, from the not so good ones.

I do believe in my heart- that even tho this person has the right to sit at home and die. I can't imagine how much pain he must be in, and we all know that alcohol does not numb the pain for very long.

PLEASE Rhonda- do the right thing. Your uncle needs help.

If anyone wants to chew me up, so be it. I have said my peace.

leslie :-D · Aug 27, 2004

oh my goodness angie.

i can't imagine anyone chewing you up because you give a damn.

and as for your family friend, however tragic that is, this person did it alone...no one was right next to him when he jumped....he did it actively on his own time.

of course it is natural to question yourself, why didn't i see that coming?

which brings me to my next point:

people are hearing about rhonda's uncle willing himself to die; yet some posters seem to think it's his right????

i just don't understand. i really don't.

IMustBeCrazy · Aug 28, 2004

I think that it is a wild assumption to conclude that since a nurse says that a person has the right to decline medical care that the nurse saying it must obviously be lacking in 'empathy' or is somehow negligent or deficient. This is simply a matter of a differing point of view, not better nor worse, just different.

And I stand by my statements about the elderly mother being in jeopardy. It is ill-conceived for someone to conjecture that just because another says that it must mean that we are 'angling' for the alcoholic patient. Please take what I said at face value...I believe that this this is elder abuse. Plain and simple.

These inherently accusatory statements cause needless strife and grief in the work world. No one has ALL the answers, we can only inwardly reflect on situations and use our individual best judgement on how things could be handled. No one here is perfect or miniature Mother Theresa's, I think it does us all a service to remember that.

mscsrjhm · Aug 28, 2004

Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

No one has a right to decide what happiness is for someone else.

To watch others drink/drug themselves to death... this is their right.

To force another way of living on a person, just because "we know what is best" is not allowing people their rights.

It isn't easy to watch others destroy their lives, but you don't FORCE your way on someone else.

Yes, calling in police, family services, health department is trying to find every angle possible to enforce your beliefs on another.

We have all witnessed family members struggle. Perhaps this is their role in life. I don't allow anyone to tell me how to live my life now, not gonna allow it later. And, isn't is very presumptious to assume that we know best?

Energizer Bunny · Aug 28, 2004

I have to tell you if someone had not helped me, I would not be here today. I don't feel it is an interference to call for assistance for someone. I just don't. I can't. We are all human and the fact that we care is what makes us who we are.

While yes, people have the right to decide to die (I agree with that wholeheartedly), this person could be screaming for help inside and since no one is answering he is going to get the wish that he expresses (to die) even though it may not be what he REALLY wants deep inside.

caroladybelle, BSN, RN · Aug 28, 2004

people are hearing about rhonda's uncle willing himself to die; yet some posters seem to think it's his right????
i just don't understand. i really don't.

No one thinks that it is good or right, but like people that smoke themselves to death, Diabetics that suck down sugar, cardiac patients that clog their arteries, people will continue to kill themselves in beign yet deadly fashion. And they are doing so legally. We can teach them better and give them all the healthy resources in the world, but unless they choose to avail themselves of this help, they will continue to kill themselves.

snowfreeze, BSN, RN · Aug 28, 2004

End of life issues are difficult for medical staff. We are trained to save lives. In the USA we don't teach much about end of life issues. Quality of life is certainly a consideration. Sometimes a person says, "enough of this" I am done.....please stop. Depression after a life of depression and self abuse will not be altered in a 6 month or 2 year period of attempts. We as nurses feel quite helpless when we cannot teach or show these people kindness and a friendly smiley face at the end of their life. The human mind is so complex it fascinates many and evades even more. Genetics, environmental, behavioral, medication induced...so many options, so few outcomes as death is the end issue for all. To make the life portion nice is our goal...nursing is my choice.

leslie :-D · Aug 28, 2004

No one thinks that it is good or right, but like people that smoke themselves to death, Diabetics that suck down sugar, cardiac patients that clog their arteries, people will continue to kill themselves in beign yet deadly fashion. And they are doing so legally. We can teach them better and give them all the healthy resources in the world, but unless they choose to avail themselves of this help, they will continue to kill themselves.

this is not the same.

these conditions you describe take years to manifest themselves.

now if a person who had smoked for years, suddenly had an asthma attack, ......you could watch this person w/o intervening?

same with diabetics or anyone else that abuses their bodies and ends up with cad....could you watch someone having a heart attack w/o intervening?

and i'm not talking about someone with a terminal condition, or that's 90yo.

i'm talking about someone who is very depressed and just wants to die.

we don't have any responsibilities in this type of situation?