need some advice on getting family member medical attention against their will

Nurses General Nursing

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my uncle is a alcoholic for many years now, he has began swelling up face and legs, his legs now have 10 inch diameter open wounds on them 1 1/2 inch deep draining and yellow, he also has a hernia almost to his knees. he lives with my grandma and of course is not employed, won't sign for medicaid or any help, says he wants to die. my problem is i do not want my grandma too find him dead soon. is there any way we can get him medical attention without his consent? he can't keep any solids down, he's started throwing any food up. any info would be greatly appreciated

thanx

and furthermore, who is deeming him competent?

If people refuse medical attention, refuse to see MD, should they be forced into a competency test?

No sarcasm, asking your opinion.

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Unfortunately, probably not. Now, if he had a plan and means, that would be a different matter.

Kim, your post reminds me of a situation we had with a schizophrenic lady who would not take her meds. She was vaguely dangerous, more scary actually. She never threatened anyone, never hurt anyone, but she was kind of disruptive.

We were able to get her committed for 72 hours (enough to get meds restarted) by asserting that at her stage of illness, her refusal to take care of herself constituted threat to self. The more of these weird episodes she had, the higher the probabiliity that she would not return to her former level of functioning. The judge bought it. He didn't like it, but he did issue the order.

This fellow really isn't hurting anybody in a direct way, not even himself. We are allowed to neglect ourselves right into the grave--it's apparenlty a constitutional right.....

Sad, huh? Best thing for him would be for his whole family to go to Al-Anon. I think you will see that they (the family) are not willing to do that.

It is the paradox of addictive family dynamics. Everyone is affected, no one takes responsibility, everyone wants to help someone else make changes. And the "identified client" who usually has the alcoholism or drug addiction just gets sicker and sicker, until they die and/or kill someone else as a result of their impairment.

And often, still, the family cannot be convinced to take the first step that has worked for so many others.

Does it seem that perhaps I have a personal stake in this? I do. My child has been recently actively suicidal, she's living in another state. She has a drug and alcohol problem. I have "a program" (meaning I do the things I am supposed to do, having family members whose drinking and drugging "bothers" me), I go to Al-Anon, I follow the steps, etc. The rest of the family pretends there is no problem.

Ya know what happened the last time she got suicidal? Gramma took her pills away, which was good, and then the two of them went and had their hair done.

I'm telling you, it is the entire family that is sick, not just the obvious one.

Chris....I am sorry for the problems with your daughter. Unfortunately, it sounds very similar to my ex. We cannot help those that do not wish to be helped. ((((((Chris)))))

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RHONDA - I thought of one possibility that may force treatment without your uncle's consent. You said his wounds are draining "yellow". The public health department may be able to force treatment if they feel that his wounds are not just infected but also pose a health risk to others! I know it may seem far fetched, but it is possible that his wound drainage could be infectious to others and the health department may be able to take action.

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and furthermore, who is deeming him competent?

Competence is assumed in every case until incompetence is proven. You do not have to prove your sanity before each doctor's visit, do you? A person is considered competent until it has been deemed otherwise. Sort of like innocent until proven guilty?

I believe that his decision is informed (on the layman's level) because he has stated that he wants to die. He is unable to eat, increasing edema, and ten inch draining wounds. The likely outcome is death. He SEEMS to know this. He states that he wants to die.

If a blood transfusion is all that will save Patient X, but Patient X refuses blood transfusion because of religion (Jehovah's Witness for example), is that patient automatically assumed to be incompetent or uninformed? No - Patient X has made his decision and that decision may not be understood, but it will certainly be accepted because it is protected by a constitutional right. Rhonda's uncle has the right to refuse treatment - we may not understand his decision, but it his to make until he is deemed incompetent.

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Yes- he is a threat to others- his mother, medical intervention is necessary.

He has draining wounds that may contain MRSA or gangrene- nonetheless- the health dept needs to get involved.

Yes, yes he has rights, but so does his mother & I am assuming that it is HER home that he is living in.

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i don't know, i really don't.

this is such an ethical dilemma for me; nothing black and white about it.

i am very much a proponent for a patient's self-will.

but i always struggle with those that are depressed and making such decisions.

apathy can prevent one from seeking the help they really need and perhaps even want.

apathy paralyzes you.

and it would seem that he does have a plan of committing suicide just by not getting himself help for everything he's presenting with.

sigh.........i just don't know. so sad.

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[QUOTE=Angela Mac]Yes- he is a threat to others- his mother, medical intervention is necessary.

He has draining wounds that may contain MRSA or gangrene- nonetheless- the health dept needs to get involved.

Yes, yes he has rights, but so does his mother & I am assuming that it is HER home that he is living in.

However, one must assume that him mother is competent, and, with that assumption, she has her own rights. Including the right to have draining wounds in her home.

This is scary, attempting to find another angle to, very simply, "get our way".

(although it is a really great idea)

Not our job as human beings to force care or attention on him, or his mother. Simply by offering assistance, you have done the right thing. Once refused, walk off.

Let it go.

(Footnote: If I ever get sick.. I want Earle58 to take care of me. Seems like the kind of nurse that would do anything and everything to take care of the patient. Thanks Earle58....)

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i don't know, i really don't.

this is such an ethical dilemma for me; nothing black and white about it.

i am very much a proponent for a patient's self-will.

but i always struggle with those that are depressed and making such decisions.

apathy can prevent one from seeking the help they really need and perhaps even want.

apathy paralyzes you.

and it would seem that he does have a plan of committing suicide just by not getting himself help for everything he's presenting with.

sigh.........i just don't know. so sad.

I have to agree with you here Leslie, on all points. Very tough .... definately not a black or white issue with me either.

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(Footnote: If I ever get sick.. I want Earle58 to take care of me. Seems like the kind of nurse that would do anything and everything to take care of the patient. Thanks Earle58....)

Yeppers! Me too! Me too!!!! Leslie for "Carer of the year"!!!!!!

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Yeppers! Me too! Me too!!!! Leslie for "Carer of the year"!!!!!!

Cloning Earle58 a possibility here??? That way, we don't have to share.

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We are all going to have to get sick together so she can take care of all of us at the same time! LOL!

Leslie...you catching this? Mucho respect for you girl!

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:eek: :eek: :eek:

:imbar :imbar :imbar

:blushkiss :blushkiss

:balloons:

i humbly thank you both.

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