need some advice on getting family member medical attention against their will

ktwlpn, LPN · Aug 29, 2004

We don't know from the info given us in the post if the guy has been diagnosed with depression-and as someone else said-if he IS clinically depressed it will take more then a bandaid to treat it....We do know that this guy made a decision about 10 yrs ago (to drink like a fish and suck the life out of his little old mother) and his mother has enabled him....The OP wanted to know if there is a way to force him into medical treatment-let's put aside for a minute the possible depression,the niece's responsibility-moral and legal) Is there a legal way to force a person into medical treatment against their wishes and should there be? Should the government have that power? Here is the slippery slope people-look at this as a freedom---do you want to loose it? Where would you draw the line? As someone said-we can educate all we want but -bottom line-it is the patients choice to live a healthy lifestyle ...and it's our job to care for them as they wish...I most often see train wrecks that have been non-compliant for YEARS-they come to us after the damage is done and want to be FIXED....well-that's our job,too......Don't you think we should have the right to make this type of decision? You are setting back health care and end of life issues YEARS ....Do some research here on the net-I have found numerous resources that uphold the patients right to refuse treatment-....we do have state and federal laws to protect that right.................................................................................................According to the 14th Amendment to the Constitution, "No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law..."

.........Choosing which medical care, if any, you will ultilize is a privilege, a personal freedom one should not be deprived of. If taking such medical care would, in an individual's opinion, infringe upon their freedom to make their own choices, or their pursuit of happiness, it is, in my opinion, prohibited by the Constitution...................The right defined and protected in all the right to refuse treatment cases is the right to be free from unwanted bodily intrusions. It is not the "right to die" or to determine "the time and manner of one's own death" or to "hasten" one's death. The Supreme court has upheld this right over and over.Even in cases in which competency was an issue the person's right to refuse treatment was upheld->>>>>>>An Incompetent Adult's Right to Forgo Medical Treatment

An incompetent adult patient has a right to forgo medical treatment under the doctrine of substitute judgment. Under this doctrine, an incompetent patient's right to refuse treatment is exercised through a surrogate decision maker who will carry out the incompetent patient's wishes as closely as possible. The court, legal guardians, close family members or religious leaders use their judgment to determine what they believe the incompetent person, if competent, would have done under the circumstances. In other words, the decision maker must act in the same manner, and with the same motives and considerations, as the incompetent person if he or she were capable of rational decision making Again, even though the decision of the incompetent patient, reached through substitute judgment, must outweigh relevant state interest, the patient's decision will be upheld in virtually all cases.............. :rotfl: Yeah-I am practicing plagiarism.....anyhoo-we are all learning...and that's what it's all about....

IMustBeCrazy · Aug 29, 2004

I left a few jobs that I could have made a career out of, because I could not walk around with blinders on. That is what separates the good nurses, from the not so good ones.

I think this is what people are taking exception to. Unfortunately, as I think we all can agree, it's not a black and white issue.

leslie :-D · Aug 29, 2004

ok ktw-

i've been googling away here, under the right to refuse med'l treatment.

so far, everything i've read is based on informed consent: a doctor telling a person that they have xy and z- then they have the right to refuse EXCEPT in the case of the depressed person, and then that varies on an individual case.

then i googled 'right to refuse to seek med'l treatment' and i'm not coming up with anything yet so i'll really have to research further.

obviously we can all keep on going in circles here.

since we know that people have the right to refuse (with this right being based on a medical diagnosis), i want to find out about refusing to seek medical treatment.

i'll be back if i find anything.

leslie

mscsrjhm · Aug 29, 2004

ok ktw-
i've been googling away here, under the right to refuse med'l treatment.
so far, everything i've read is based on informed consent: a doctor telling a person that they have xy and z- then they have the right to refuse EXCEPT in the case of the depressed person, and then that varies on an individual case.
then i googled 'right to refuse to seek med'l treatment' and i'm not coming up with anything yet so i'll really have to research further.
obviously we can all keep on going in circles here.
since we know that people have the right to refuse (with this right being based on a medical diagnosis), i want to find out about refusing to seek medical treatment.
i'll be back if i find anything.
leslie

I am not sure what you are saying... but.. people have the right to refuse to seek medical treatment, the right to refuse to listen to a medical professional, they have the right to laugh in your face when you mention "informed consent".

leslie :-D · Aug 30, 2004

I am not sure what you are saying... but.. people have the right to refuse to seek medical treatment, the right to refuse to listen to a medical professional, they have the right to laugh in your face when you mention "informed consent".

ok, let me put it this way.

when someone as sick as rhonda's uncle, is refusing to seek medical treatment for his vomiting, edema and infected wounds accompanied by statements of "let me die"...clearly depressed which could be hindering any help he would otherwise seek for himself...i don't know if 'right' is even an appropriate term in this case.

but i would be willing to bet that if the uncle actually does die, there will be concerns as to what was and wasn't done; why and why not; and even potential allegations of negligence....

and as nurses, we are bound by professional obligations of beneficence and to do no harm.

not attempting to help someone in need, just might infringe upon those obligations.

mscsrjhm · Aug 30, 2004

ok, let me put it this way.
when someone as sick as rhonda's uncle, is refusing to seek medical treatment for his vomiting, edema and infected wounds accompanied by statements of "let me die"...clearly depressed which could be hindering any help he would otherwise seek for himself...i don't know if 'right' is even an appropriate term in this case.
but i would be willing to bet that if the uncle actually does die, there will be concerns as to what was and wasn't done; why and why not; and even potential allegations of negligence....
and as nurses, we are bound by professional obligations of beneficence and to do no harm.
not attempting to help someone in need, just might infringe upon those obligations.

Understood. However, it seems as though the fine line between "force" and "help" is being treaded back and forth.

As a nurse, I am under no obligation to assist anyone, other than my duties at work. (don't want to sound harsh... I am a very caring person, but also a realist and firm believer in "rights")

As a human, I feel that I have an obligation to assist all humanity.

We have all experienced people who don't want help, and could care less about their own physical situation. (This is where I was under the impression that you thought people should be forced into a medical evaluation, and that they could only refuse AFTER being informed of their medical condition.)

Also, all of us will die. Some are so miserable with their life that dying is one of their options. (mile in their shoes....)

The thought of dying might actually be a healthy one for some.

mscsrjhm · Aug 30, 2004

Wrong post, sorry

anney1981 · Aug 30, 2004

my uncle is a alcoholic for many years now, he has began swelling up face and legs, his legs now have 10 inch diameter open wounds on them 1 1/2 inch deep draining and yellow, he also has a hernia almost to his knees. he lives with my grandma and of course is not employed, won't sign for medicaid or any help, says he wants to die. my problem is i do not want my grandma too find him dead soon. is there any way we can get him medical attention without his consent? he can't keep any solids down, he's started throwing any food up. any info would be greatly appreciated
thanx

The adult protective agency in your area will definitely step in!!!

caroladybelle, BSN, RN · Aug 30, 2004

The adult protective agency in your area will definitely step in!!!

And you can guarantee this how?????????

caroladybelle, BSN, RN · Aug 30, 2004

chrisco woman-
the way ladycarolebelle was answering, she was talking as "if i were the md/np/pa and known that i had done everything i can...." yes, i agree with that, totally. then it's their right to refuse.
my problem is that as an md/np/pa has not seen the uncle, i, as an observer, would do what i could to get him med'l help.
my biggest concern is that he's depressed; and i do find problematic, people making such decisions when that depressed.
it doesn't make sense, if every depressed person successfuly committed suicide because everyone said "well, that's his right".

No that is not what I meant, and you are not reading Caroladybelle right.

The patient has most likely seen a medical practitioner. He should also be well aware, what will be the obvious outcome of his continuing obviously self destructive behavior. And he is choosing his life of alcohol abuse over treatment.

Depression does not equal incompetence. Just because they are depressed does not mean that we have a right to take custody of them.

As an Oncology Nurse, every day I have patients that are depressed, that disagree with their MDs care plans, and that voice that they may prefer death over life with their condition. That neither makes them suicidal nor irrational...it in fact may be more "rational" than their MDs plans.

Everyday as nurses, we have coworkers that take frequent smoke breaks. There is nothing "rational" about smoking. They routinely see people suffering and dying of smoking...they full well know the harm of what they are doing to themselves. Yet they continue to abuse themselves. That seems to indicate serious mental incompetence and "suididal intent". Yet we are not "forcing them to stop, or having a judge take charge of them, to force upon them, the "Right" thing.

And at no time did I mention MD/PA/NP. Nurses are health care professionals in their own right, and with appropriate education can address the hazards of alcohol, diabetic complications, CAD, smoking, etc.

But none of us can force anything on anyone.

leslie :-D · Aug 30, 2004

well caroladybelle , i certain understand and encourage autonomy.

being a hospice nurse, i too encounter many patients that do not agree with their plan of care, and i'm the first to advocate for them.

with that said, i struggle with this situation;

unable to articulate on exactly why but it does not rest right with me.

but since we do not know the entire situation, i will politely bow out now.

but even if i have very specific views on various issues, i will never rubberstamp these situations as being the same for all the players are different.

so you didn't like 'lady carolbelle'? :chuckle

peace out.

leslie

caroladybelle, BSN, RN · Aug 30, 2004

I wish that we could save the World from itself at times. But we can't.

We can just make a few pieces of it better, ocasionally.

I can educate my patients til the cows come home about comfort care and treatment...and yet have had some choose suicide...I used to take it personally, but no longer do.

We cannot fix everything, and it is not our personal failing if the situation is not "fixable". We must be happy in that agaist many odds that we fix what we do.