'Moral values' and organ donation

NurseGuy_in_06 · Dec 4, 2004

People have their reasons for why they choose not to discuss the basis of their opinion on this subject on a public board. It's a very personal issue for some people, a little more to some than others.

I agree that a person can give their opinion on a subject without necessarily stating why they believe that way. But I believe they give up that right if they question another person's reason for their belief. I do not have the right to question your belief/opinion if I am not willing to share mine. I respect others opinions but if you ask me why then you tell me why. Is that not fair?

CritterLover, BSN, RN · Dec 4, 2004

i am going to try to add to some of the previous clarifications. i spent several years working in an icu that saw many potential organ donation patients. while i think that the process of decaliring a patient brain dead varies a bit from facility to facility, the general process is the same. the patients have to be declared brain dead before the organ procurement organization (opa) will even approach the family for donation. once the patient was declared brain dead (and, as an earlier poster mentioned, this is a very long and involved process), the family would be told and given time to grieve. we would then contact the opa, and let them know they had a potential patient. they would come in, review the chart, and then sit done with the family once the family was ready. in the mean time, we nurses were working our tails off trying to keep the heart beating and the body perfusing.

notice that i didn't say "keep the body alive." becuase i learned early on that phrasing things this was is very confsuing to the family. it is confusing enough to them to be told that their loved one is dead, but yet they see us continue to hang medicines, suction, leave the vent on, etc trying to keep the organs perfused; i learned to never tell them that we were keeping the body "alive," because that sends mixed messages, and besides, we wern't. when the brain died, the body died as well (can part of a person be alive and another part dead? dead is dead). had the patients not been on vast quantities of vasoactive drips and a ventilator, the heart would have stopped beating shortly after brain death. most nurses who have cared for a patient that experiences a brain death can tell you that you can usually pinpoint the time the brain herniates. while you may have previously had a modeartely unstable patient, once that patient herniates you have an extremely unstable patient. so, what we were doing was keeping the organs perfused. if the family declined to donate, everything was then turned off. no discussion with the family about continuing life support, no papers to sign, because the patient is already dead (legally and scientifically). the drips got turned off, the vent got turned off, and that was that. so, to echo what others have already said, doctors certainly don't end someone's life early in order to "get their organs." (i think there was an episode of law and order a few years back that centered on that theme and has probably helped to perpetuate the myth).

NurseGuy_in_06 · Dec 4, 2004

Or the welfare comparison, where for whatever reason, a person isn't able to or doesn't want to participate in the labor market - we still feel that they should get something back, even if they weren't able to or didn't want to contribute to the system.
This *eye for an eye* mentality seems a little harsh - a person may have contributed much in other ways, saving lives, supporting worthwhile causes, and when they may be in need, even if they didn't sign up as a donor, I hope that they'll get the best possible medical care - including organs if necessary.
robsta
:)

Well said. :coollook:

Nurse Ratched, RN · Dec 4, 2004

Just an interesting side note: I was chatting with a lovely 82 year old lady today and we got on the subject of blood donation (I'm due to give tomorrow.) She commented that when she was 16 and her brother was 14, he needed 3 units of blood. In order to not have to pay for the blood, three more units were collected from willing friends/family members to balance out the supply, so to speak. At that time, if the units could not be "replaced", the patient would be charged.

I'm not sure how it's related, but this thread made me think of it.

NurseGuy_in_06 · Dec 4, 2004

Another form of coersion, in my opinion, is that in the state of Georgia the hospital, by law, has to notify the organ donation group (don't know their official name) when someone dies so that the family can be asked to donate the organs of the deceased. The hospitals used to do this but apparently the state didn't think there were enough people saying yes to donating organs. Now because of this law the process of dying and grieving became a little less private.

robsta · Dec 4, 2004

Well said.

Thanks

:)

Marie_LPN, RN, LPN, RN · Dec 4, 2004

I agree that a person can give their opinion on a subject without necessarily stating why they believe that way. But I believe they give up that right if they question another person's reason for their belief. I do not have the right to question your belief/opinion if I am not willing to share mine. I respect others opinions but if you ask me why then you tell me why. Is that not fair?

No one HAS to, is what i was saying. I was refering to another person's post on this thread.

NurseGuy_in_06 · Dec 4, 2004

No one HAS to, is what i was saying. I was refering to another person's post on this thread.

I meant to say my post was in general and not to you specifically.

allnurses Guide · Dec 4, 2004

I believe that organ donation has to be blind, so to speak. The organs go to the next person on the list whether they decided to donate or not.

steph

fergus51 · Dec 4, 2004

Or the welfare comparison, where for whatever reason, a person isn't able to or doesn't want to participate in the labor market - we still feel that they should get something back, even if they weren't able to or didn't want to contribute to the system.
This *eye for an eye* mentality seems a little harsh - a person may have contributed much in other ways, saving lives, supporting worthwhile causes, and when they may be in need, even if they didn't sign up as a donor, I hope that they'll get the best possible medical care - including organs if necessary.
robsta
:)

People do get thrown off welfare and unemployment benefits all the time because there are limits to how long people can collect. And we are all required to contribute to it, so it seems like that is the same as my idea of how organ donation should be and no one calls it coersion.

Again, you don't need to worry cause people will get the best possible care even if they don't sign up as donors. I was only discussing what I feel should happen, not what is happening.

fergus51 · Dec 4, 2004

Another form of coersion, in my opinion, is that in the state of Georgia the hospital, by law, has to notify the organ donation group (don't know their official name) when someone dies so that the family can be asked to donate the organs of the deceased. The hospitals used to do this but apparently the state didn't think there were enough people saying yes to donating organs. Now because of this law the process of dying and grieving became a little less private.

I don't think that's coercion since they can just say no. Coersion implies that there is some threat to them and there isn't. Those laws tended to develop because hospital workers would not even bring this up with family members and people feel it's better to at least ask so the family knows all their options. It's like ensuring informed consent. We also have to notify the organ donation folks here in California, but our patients are always inelligible to donate, so they never actually contact the families.

PamUK · Dec 4, 2004

Someone, very early on in the thread, said they couldn't understand why other people did not want to be an organ donor after death. There are religious reasons - Jehovahs Witness's refuse whole blood and organs, so I can't imagine that they would want to donate their organs after they had died.

I think the main reason people do not donate is because they just dont think about it... in the same way they just don't think about making a will. Dont know about the US, but in the UK a high percentage of people die without making a will. I was married for 26 years and we only ever got round to making a will about 2 months before my husband died. And only then because we knew he was going to die.

People just think that their own death is some time off, so plenty of time to think about it & get round to making a will & completing the card to become a donor.

Can have anything they want from me when I dead.... filled out the form & carry it in my purse everywhere I go.