Ok, I know that organ donation has been discussed here more than once, but I couldn't find anything that addressed my particular question/issue........so here goes.
In this year's presidential election, many of the exit polls showed that people voted based on their "family/moral values." It seems they (not me!) voted for Bush because they felt he stood for those values, especially in regards to gay marriage, abortion, etc. I was very distraught after the election because I hear these people talking but I don't see these people taking moral action! Organ donation is just one of the areas that angers me.
How can the majority of this country stand on such moral high-ground and then show such PATHETIC organ donation numbers? People are dying because they can't get an organ when there are plenty available, but they get buried with the patient! How can you proclaim to be such a good person with such high moral values when you aren't even willing to donate your or your family's organs in the event of their death? I really don't see that as being a whole lot less than murder.
I'm not even a nurse yet, so I'm not right in the middle of this yet, but I do dread it! Anyway, this is just something that disturbs me deeply and I wanted to get your take on it, especially those of you, if any, that are not willing to donate. I'd like an explanation!
I think this discussion has about run its course. For the record: I AM NOT in favor of anarchy. I do not advocate using cars as a weapon, nor driving while drinking, I like the fact people have to have automobile insurance which I have, including medical. Most states that have no-helmet laws require you to carry medical insurance, which I think is ok. You ARE NOT naive because you don't agree with me but because you (those of you that do) put your full faith and trust in any government. I actually like laws and rules for us all to live by I just think they tend to get out of hand sometimes. To 3rdShiftguy I say you should understand more than most when I say people in power chip away at our freedoms, little by little. My motto is "live and let live". Enjoyed it, see you all on another post. :chuckle
Again, I feel like I am being chastised because I basically want to be left alone in this world, do not want the government making every decision for me, and this especially covers being carved up after I am dead. Out of over 100 responses to the original question I have read less than 5% that try to convince me why I should donate, the others have tried to convince me why I am wrong.
I for one DO understand what you are saying believe me and I have many of the same concerns...and they are based on PRINCIPLE more than morality or ethics. Part of my resistance to the organ program is their tenacity. I resent taking so much time away from my grieving family(and my living patients) to give all the mandated personal data on the deceased to the organ banks...plus they keep databases of OUR names to track US. I resist being tracked in a 'database' whenever possible, again on principle.
Organ/tissue banks don't want to talk to these families themselves unless there's an organ involved, believe me. ..it is foisted on the staff nurse. As a nurse I am irritated at how someone else has decided this has become another one of my jobs. Too many times I have traumatized grieving families because 'by law I must ask'.
It is why I refrained from this discussion as I've been where you are now in similar discussions here. When folks don't 'jump on the bandwagon' of something PC, things can get ugly. Some here are openminded, others not.
Seems like today there are 'police' of so many persuasions who think they should make decisions for the rest of us, and throw 'shoulds' our way...as they are so much smarter, wiser, etc. This troubles me.
I for one DO understand what you are saying believe me and I have many of the same concerns...and they are based on PRINCIPLE more than morality or ethics. Part of my resistance to the organ program is their tenacity. I resent taking so much time away from my grieving family(and my living patients) to give all the mandated personal data on the deceased to the organ banks...plus they keep databases of OUR names to track US. I resist being tracked in a 'database' whenever possible, again on principle.
Organ/tissue banks don't want to talk to these families themselves unless there's an organ involved, believe me. ..it is foisted on the staff nurse. As a nurse I am irritated at how someone else has decided this has become another one of my jobs. Too many times I have traumatized grieving families because 'by law I must ask'.
It is why I refrained from this discussion as I've been where you are now in similar discussions here. When folks don't 'jump on the bandwagon' of something PC, things can get ugly. Some here are openminded, others not.
Seems like today there are 'police' of so many persuasions who think they should make decisions for the rest of us, and throw 'shoulds' our way...as they are so much smarter, wiser, etc. This troubles me.
So...don't feel alone Nurseguy in 06.
Thanks. I wish I could have said it as eloquently as you just did. An interesting aside: as I was looking up the spelling of eloquent in the dictionary, the first word I came to as I opened the book, "dictatorship". Coincidence? :rotfl:
I think this discussion has about run its course. For the record: I AM NOT in favor of anarchy. I do not advocate using cars as a weapon, nor driving while drinking, I like the fact people have to have automobile insurance which I have, including medical. Most states that have no-helmet laws require you to carry medical insurance, which I think is ok. You ARE NOT naive because you don't agree with me but because you (those of you that do) put your full faith and trust in any government. I actually like laws and rules for us all to live by I just think they tend to get out of hand sometimes. To 3rdShiftguy I say you should understand more than most when I say people in power chip away at our freedoms, little by little. My motto is "live and let live". Enjoyed it, see you all on another post. :chuckle
I do understand the chipping away at freedoms little by little. In a post-9/11 world it's happening more and more, especially with advanced technology. So you may be right, it's just a hop skip and jump away from mandatory organ donation. Hopefully, you and I and other like minded people won't sit around quietly and let it happen.
I for one DO understand what you are saying believe me and I have many of the same concerns...and they are based on PRINCIPLE more than morality or ethics. Part of my resistance to the organ program is their tenacity. I resent taking so much time away from my grieving family(and my living patients) to give all the mandated personal data on the deceased to the organ banks...plus they keep databases of OUR names to track US. I resist being tracked in a 'database' whenever possible, again on principle.
Organ/tissue banks don't want to talk to these families themselves unless there's an organ involved, believe me. ..it is foisted on the staff nurse. As a nurse I am irritated at how someone else has decided this has become another one of my jobs. Too many times I have traumatized grieving families because 'by law I must ask'.
It is why I refrained from this discussion as I've been where you are now in similar discussions here. When folks don't 'jump on the bandwagon' of something PC, things can get ugly. Some here are openminded, others not.
Seems like today there are 'police' of so many persuasions who think they should make decisions for the rest of us, and throw 'shoulds' our way...as they are so much smarter, wiser, etc. This troubles me.
So...don't feel alone Nurseguy in 06.
We never have to ask the family if they are willing to donate. Thankfully that's not been hoisted on us. The agency themselves talks to the family. But we are mandated by our organization, not law, to call them on every death. It's been that way since I've been a nurse, so I don't think of it as "extra" work, as it's always been part of post-mortem care here.
But we do have to ask about funeral homes and other comfortable things the greiving family may not have thought about. Used to be the chaplain came in for all deaths, now it's nursings job to handle a lot of it. So I feel you're pain.
mattsmom: ITA with your post. I hated having to call the organ donation agency (when I worked in the ED). We had to call with every ED death, and as soon as they heard our pt was not a donor/eldery they were rude, rude, rude. I really felt it was wrong that we had to call them even when the family specifically said, "No, we do not want to donate." I felt like that was a violation of the pt. privacy and the pt. and family's wishes.
That kind of pushiness makes me very distrustful of the process. I remember hearing talk about making organ donation mandatory in cases where the pt had no specific wishes and there was no family to object. This might have just been in my state; organ donation was a big issue here as one of our past governors had transplant surgery.
If people want to donate, that's wonderful. I just don't like the way non-donors are treated by some as selfish/uninformed. I don't consider myself either.
i'd like to take this discussion out of the realm of government mandates for a minute and pose two other subtopics for consideration and comment.
first, the spiritual side of things. how can any of us really be sure when death occurs? sure, we have signs and symptoms, but no one here today can tell me exactly what the process of dying feels like, when it is complete and what it entails from the first person perspective. even the ndes (near death experiences) can be supposedly explained with science ('the white light is from a lack of blood supply to the retina' etc.).
also, has anyone heard of, or believe, that there could be any 'cell memory'? for example, my father had 21 units of blood transfused (after a perforated bleeding ulcer) and emerged from the event as loving and craving mushrooms (which was not the case before the incident).
i posted previously about many recipients of one donor developing the donors form of cancer.
not to evoke horror movie images of the 'possessed hand' etc., but really, science can only explain things so far, then our spirituality +/or faith comes into play.
second, the 'practical' issue. assume that the u.s. (in particular) has a firm cultural belief that the individual is of the utmost importance. but, take a step back for a minute and view humanity as one living organism. with the birth rate roughly double that of the death rate, should we really be trying so hard to save lives with transplants at all costs?
now please, no flames :angryfire . i don't mean that we should withold care or let patients die. what i'm saying is, with so many issues (adequate nutrition, housing, healthcare etc.) and unknowns, is this a good idea?
the same question can be posed for cloning, infertility and longevity research etc.
could our resources be better used to cure orprevent diseases like hepatitis or cardiomyopathy, or tackle social issues such as starvation and homelessness?
again, i'm trying to not interject personal feelings or beliefs, so please do not assume that you know how i feel on these issues. :chair:
i'm posing thoughtful questions for meaningful discussion and am interested in reading all opinions
mattsmom: ITA with your post. I hated having to call the organ donation agency (when I worked in the ED). We had to call with every ED death, and as soon as they heard our pt was not a donor/eldery they were rude, rude, rude. I really felt it was wrong that we had to call them even when the family specifically said, "No, we do not want to donate." I felt like that was a violation of the pt. privacy and the pt. and family's wishes.
That kind of pushiness makes me very distrustful of the process. I remember hearing talk about making organ donation mandatory in cases where the pt had no specific wishes and there was no family to object. This might have just been in my state; organ donation was a big issue here as one of our past governors had transplant surgery.
If people want to donate, that's wonderful. I just don't like the way non-donors are treated by some as selfish/uninformed. I don't consider myself either.
My sentiments exactly. BTW I really like both Revolution songs, esp #9.
He's so very young and uneducated at this time. I'd be very interested to see where his opinions land in a few years with some real clinical experience behind him and a lot more life experience under his belt.
Being a student is a great place from which to chastise the world. Being in the middle of life and actually seeing how it works will change an opinion more efficiently than any argument.
He's so very young and uneducated at this time. I'd be very interested to see where his opinions land in a few years with some real clinical experience behind him and a lot more life experience under his belt.
Being a student is a great place from which to chastise the world. Being in the middle of life and actually seeing how it works will change an opinion more efficiently than any argument.
Thanks, I do look 10 years younger than my mid-40's. Uneducated? Only 6 years of college and counting, including a BS in engineering. Life experience? My life experiences have lead me to believe how I do. I have 3 teenage sons by the way. Please "enlighten" me as to how you feel my opinions should change. Real nursing clinical experience I do not have very much of. But, have you ever worked construction and seen your co-workers die because of management negligence? Have you lost family members because of governmental policies or the lack of? Have you ever been in management meetings and have the dept. heads, your cohorts, say about the workers in the plant "screw-um"? And just for the record before someone says I am cynical on life, I am not. I enjoy life more than a lot of you. I am cynical on the idea that the government can solve all of our problems, including organ donation. If I bring a smile to your face then I am glad. Smile away because I doubt I will change very much. I ask 2 things,though. First, look out for me while I am riding my motorcycle. And second, since most motorcycle accidents are caused by car drivers, if you can't control yourself and do manage to run over me, DON'T CARVE ME UP! :rotfl:
OK folks - I think we've had MORE than enough of the personal attacks.
Please stick to topic. Implying immaturity in other posters isn't helpful. Thank you!
I agree. I feel punch-drunk from all of the hits I have taken for my beliefs. I had been enjoying sharing ideas but if this is the true nature of this web site I can find other things to do with my time. Passionate opinions I can take but I should not be a punching bag.
NurseGuy_in_06
276 Posts
I think this discussion has about run its course. For the record: I AM NOT in favor of anarchy. I do not advocate using cars as a weapon, nor driving while drinking, I like the fact people have to have automobile insurance which I have, including medical. Most states that have no-helmet laws require you to carry medical insurance, which I think is ok. You ARE NOT naive because you don't agree with me but because you (those of you that do) put your full faith and trust in any government. I actually like laws and rules for us all to live by I just think they tend to get out of hand sometimes. To 3rdShiftguy I say you should understand more than most when I say people in power chip away at our freedoms, little by little. My motto is "live and let live". Enjoyed it, see you all on another post. :chuckle