MD: Why did you get a BG on this diabetic patient???

Specialties Emergency

Published

This is a hypothetical scenario that has not happened in real life. Everything in this post is a pure fabrication. Thankfully, this hypothetical scenario did NOT happen directly to me - I would have only observed this scenario playing out had it been a real situation. I'm still fairly new at my facility and wouldn't want this looming over me, if it were real.

Now that that's out of the way... :lol2:

Patient walks in with self-reported decreased level of consciousness/confusion. Speech is clear, mild unsteady gait but otherwise good mobility, equal and purposeful movement to all extremities, PERRL. General impression: patient looks stable. T/P/R/BP WNL.

Patient is a known frequent flier. Patient has been in the ED about 9 times in 6 months for various problems, including 3 times by ambulance for hypoglycemia. Patient has a hx of DM.

RN triages at the bedside and checks BG. 630. Rechecks BG immediately. 637. MD is busy with another patient. RN starts an IV, anticipating that this patient will need IV insulin and fluids. She draws labs but holds it until the MD makes the lab order, per protocol.

MD is FURIOUS that the RN took the BG. He had gotten a brief report when the patient was first starting to get triaged and had planned on streeting him due to him being a frequent flier (triage nurse's fault for even mentioning that, considering the chief complaint and hx). He flies off the handle and says that nurses are not to do anything invasive without an explicit MD order and that the RN was practicing outside of her scope of practice. Basically, MD is p****d off that he actually has to do something to treat this patient instead of clearing him off of the board, since it's 30 minutes prior to shift change and he has a tendency to discharge/admit everyone in the last hour.

I have never worked anywhere where a nurse could NOT start an IV if a patient was in danger of going downhill (except facilities that did not have the equipment; i.e. assisted living). I have never worked anywhere where a nurse could NOT check a BG on a diabetic, especially one presenting with a decreased level of consciousness.

If this patient was not a frequent flier, and presented with the same sx/sx, the MD would have been furious that BG had NOT been checked and IV was NOT started. This just seems crazy to me. Can't win for losing in this scenario.

Like I said, I'm just glad it didn't happen to me. :yeah:

Specializes in Clinical Research, Outpt Women's Health.

The doc was being a big fat son of gun piece of work JERK. Simple as that.

Hypotheically speaking of course.....:D:D:D

Specializes in EMS, ED, Trauma, CEN, CPEN, TCRN.

Docs like that might benefit from a swift kick to their hypotheticals every now and then. :D Kidding, kidding ... but seriously, this is why I don't care if a particular patient has hit our ED bed 500+ times. If they have a real health issue and the symptoms warrant, you initiate your protocols. Period. We have had several frequent flyers die in the last few years -- not in the ED, you understand, but they were by the time they came in. Boy who cried wolf, etc....

In our ED we would definitely be scolded for not taking a blood glucose reading, especially if the patient was diabetic AND symptomatic! As for the IV...I probably would have done the same thing! You are wasting precious time if they crash and you are trying to start an IV after the fact!

Everyone is right...there would be way more he!! to pay if you threw the patient back out on the street and they ended up injured/dead!

We have several physician-approved and hospital-approved protocols. It is EXPECTED that we are fulfilling the protocol if an appropriate patient comes through the door! Protocols are there to expedite patient care, but they are also there when a patient could take or has taken a turn for the worse and you don't have time to wait on the doc!

If I was told not to follow the protocol, I think I would be a bit fearful. If something happened would the doc admit that he told me not to follow it? Or would I be punished for not following the protocol?! I guess that's where documentation comes in :D

Specializes in Med Surg/Tele/ER.

Oh geezh....I will follow protocol, and do what is right for my patient. If the doc is p****d off so what??? Better to be p****d off than P****d on! I guess this doc doesn't think frequent flyers can get sick....and heaven forbid if one should actually have the nerve to die! Chart well, be a pt advocate.

Specializes in ICU, Telemetry.

If I see a patient who's sweaty, confused, just seems "off" and then says they're diabetic, I'm going to get a blood sugar. And any doc who yells at me about it on the wrong day is going to get a big dose of red headed temper. You don't get to kill my patient because you want to go home on time. You wanted a 9-5 job, you should've picked something besides medicine.

MD is FURIOUS that the RN took the BG. He had gotten a brief report when the patient was first starting to get triaged and had planned on streeting him due to him being a frequent flier (triage nurse's fault for even mentioning that, considering the chief complaint and hx). He flies off the handle and says that nurses are not to do anything invasive without an explicit MD order and that the RN was practicing outside of her scope of practice.

Assuming your ED has nurse initiated protocols and that the RN followed them appropriately, this MD is just plain WRONG. And an ass.

Specializes in ED, Long-term care, MDS, doctor's office.

I used to work at a LTC facility that had a protocol for hypoglycemia: juice, oral glucose, glucogon, and then may start an IV with anticipation of md order for D50...All of this could be done while waiting for an call back from the md...Also, if no md call back, could call 911 & EMTs needed no order to administer the D50 if needed.

Specializes in ER/Trauma.
1. Where out of his post do you assume that the patient is unpleasant?
How many pleasant frequent fliers have you met in your ED? Do they out-ratio the unpleasant ones?

2. I'm referring to the MD as to caring if patient is insured IT DOES MATTER!! the kind of treatment and care you do receive.

3. If a patient is uninsured the ED physician has to deal with Admin and the hospitalist to get approval for an admission

4. The patient gets a separate Bill from the ED physician in which he knows he probably isn't going to get paid.

Wooow!

Just wow!

So ED MDs are uncaring *******s who only give a **** if the pt. is insured and/or billable or not.

Got it.

cheers,

Specializes in ER.

yeah...um...the thing to do here is hope that none of the others are like this one and if they are...look for another job.

its proof that even our MDs can get burned out in the ER. he or she probably needs a vacation.

as for me, i agree with lunahRN...this kind of MD pulling rank stuff when RN has gotten ahead of him is a pitfall of practicing nursing with protocols in the ER setting, at this point, i am unfazed and would have just asked where he wanted the patient bedded? critical care or regular bed or what? and moved on with my day...of course, makes a great story for the co-workers who can tell me all about his other shenanigans as well!

Specializes in Emergency, Case Management, Informatics.

Looks like a s---storm was dredged up about this incident and it went to risk management. We all got an email back today from risk management and the ED director. While the incident specifics were not mentioned, we were told that it is most definitely within our scope of practice and within policy to obtain a BG at our discretion if we believe that pt may by hypo/hyperglycemic. Additionally, our policy already clearly states to draw blood if the BG is >500 x2.

So, no need to report the MD. Looks like he reported himself. ;)

He's really not a bad ED doc. 90% of the time, he's on his A game and does not question the RN's. It's just that 10% wildcard that makes him a little dangerous to work with.

Specializes in Emergency.

That 10% will get you in trouble IMHO. I work in an ED and generally I am the first one in the room to see the patient. If I am made aware that a patient is diabetic they get a fingerstick whether that is their chief complaint or not. I consider it a part of my assessment, and I will NEVER take s#@t from a doctor for doing it! It is covered under our ED protocols, and I don't care if the patient is homeless or living in a mansion. The MD's should never treat based on insurance or lack thereof. I am curious how they know who has insurance and who doesn't, since it really isn't their business, they are obligated to treat all people regardless. Yes we have FF's who are PITA's but even if we roll our eyes when we see their names on the tracking board, we still have to treat them, and many of them do have major medical issues.

If I were your "hypothetical friend/coworker" I would make sure I document EVERYTHING and let the Medical Director know that they need to keep an eye on that doc.

Specializes in Oncology, Emergency.

As much as we are not doctors we need to have some independent thinking on our part. Last Friday we had an ambulance ring down and the patient was having TIA symptoms. Fast forward and they got to the department and yes they had stroke symptoms.. and we jumped into actions. No matter what we do we should always use our theory to practice. We know that there are many symptoms that may mimic a stroke and to make matters worse the paramedics hadn't done a finger stick. One of my colleagues already had the glucometer out and in a few we checked the BG and surprise...surprise it was 35mg/dl. In less that a minute we already had D50 out and in less that a minute the symptoms had resolved and she was all awake. Talk about independent thinking; waiting for the doctors order would have been detrimental. In my practice there are some things that don't need orders; e.g IV's on adults, BG checks, drawing and holding blood, collecting that urine specimen. I have heard of places where doing this will get you into trouble. Of course you won't order Head CT or abdominal xray or adminster narcotics but some things are basic and you should get started. A Diabetic will always get a BG check regardless of their symptoms unless they are there for ear pain or med refill. The only exception is pedi patients; will not go beyond basic procedures till the MD says go ahead. Think independent and practice safe.

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