Mandatory Vaccination

[degfnp]

Many hospitals mandate their nurses to receive influenza vaccinations each year during flu season. Those who decline are forced to wear a mask while at work during the season. For those who cannot get the vaccine (for example, those who are allergic to ingredients), this seems like unfair punishment for something that they did not choose!

I can understand mandating nurses who decline, because in my opinion, it is an incentive for the staff to receive the vaccine. However, for those who wish that they are able to be vaccinated, this seems like undue punishment! I know it is for their protection, but in my opinion, they should have the right to make that decision on their own.

What are your thoughts on this?

[Guest219794]

I was not referring to you morte. I was referring to the OP who has made two posts one day apart that are both on the topic of vaccines but different enough to cause suspicion. I think the OP is either a troll or a bot.

You... no way. Love you morte.

Confused about the last part of your post:

"I think the OP is either a troll or a bot. "

What are the other possibilities?

[FolksBtrippin, BSN, RN]

Confused about the last part of your post:

"I think the OP is either a troll or a bot. "

What are the other possibilities?

What am I missing? Are there other possibilities?

[morte, LPN, LVN]

There are multiple studies and meta-analyses out there, and most of them show similar things - 30-60% efficacy. I feel no need to prove that to you. You clearly have your mind made up.

because they do not prove anything. the only way to prove it is large scale randomized studies. which no one will do. prove to me that the death rate has gone down, year to year. you can not state with a straight face that any one person would have died w/o the vac. My biggest problem is that other, proven, methods of disease reduction, such as good hand hygiene and staying the heck home when sick, are being put to the side, because of being vaxed.

[morte, LPN, LVN]

You assume FolksB talking about you.

Please, I did not think you to one to be so disingenuous.

[morte, LPN, LVN]

There are multiple existing "Flu Wars" threads here with citations and references out the wazoo, if you're actually interested and not just looking to argue.

not my job, as the opposition, to bring the proof. unless some one does/has done a large randomized study, there is no proof that it works. how in heck can any one with any scientific awareness not understand that?

[morte, LPN, LVN]

Belshe RB, Mendelman PM, Treanor, et al. The efficacy of live attenuated, cold-adapted, trivalent, intranasal influenza virus vaccine in children. N Engl J Med. 1998; 338(20):1405-12.

Benowitz I, Esposito DB, Gracey KD, et al. Influenza vaccine given to pregnant women reduces hospitalization due to influenza in their infants. Clin Infect Dis. 2010; 51(12):1355-61.

Ciszewski A, Bilinska ZT, Brydak LB, et al. Influenza vaccination in secondary prevention from coronary ischaemic events in coronary artery disease: FLUCAD study. Eur Heart J. 2008 Jun; 29(11):1350-8.

Colquhoun AJ, Nicholson KG , Botha JL, Raymond NT. Effectiveness of influenza vaccine in reducing hospital admissions in people with diabetes. Epidemiol Infect. 1997; 119(3):335-41.

Ferdinands JM, Olsho LEW, Agan AA, et al. Effectiveness of influenza vaccine against life-threatening RT-PCR-confirmed influenza illness in US children, 2010-2012. J Infect Dis. 2014; 210(5):674-683.

Havers FP, Sokolow L, Shay DK, Farley MM, et al. Case-control study of vaccine effectiveness in preventing laboratory-confirmed influenza hospitalizations in older adults, United States, 2010-2011. Clin Infect Dis. 2016; 63(4).

Madhi SA, Cutland CL, Kuwanda L, et al. Influenza vaccination of pregnant women and protection of their infants. N Eng J Med. 2014; 371(10):1918-31.

Nichol KL, Baken L, Nelson A. Relation between influenza vaccination and outpatient visits, hospitalization, and mortality in elderly persons with chronic lung disease. Annals of Internal Medicine 1999;130:397-403.

Phrommintikul A, Kuanprasert S, Wongcharoen W,et al. Influenza vaccination reduces cardiovascular events in patients with acute coronary syndrome. Eur Heart J. 2011; 32(14):1730-5.

Talbot HK, Griffin, MR, Chen Q, et al. Effectiveness of seasonal vaccine in preventing confirmed influenza-associated hospitalizations in community dwelling older adults. J. Infect Dis 2011; 203:500-8.

Talbot HK, Zhu Y, Chen Q, et al. Effectiveness of influenza vaccine for preventing laboratory-confirmed influenza hospitalizations in adults, 2011-2012 influenza season. Clin Infect Dis. 2013; 56(12): 1774-7.

A summary of the research: Vaccine Effectiveness - How Well Does the Flu Vaccine Work? | Seasonal Influenza (Flu) | CDC

any with large randomized cohorts? with control of confounding variables? if so, please point out. because otherwise they are pretty much worthless.

[elkpark]

not my job, as the opposition, to bring the proof. unless some one does/has done a large randomized study, there is no proof that it works. how in heck can any one with any scientific awareness not understand that?

And it's not the job of anyone here to prove anything to you. You're entitled to your opinion. Healthcare employers are entitled to establish policies and requirements they feel are necessary for client safety and infection control. If you really object to vaccination, you might still be able to find a healthcare employer that doesn't require (or, at least, really, really, really strongly encourage) it.

I admire the patience and fortitude of the posters here who are willing to spend time and effort finding and posting articles and studies (I used to be one of them), but I'm no longer willing to play that game (which is what it ends up being from your "side" -- I've no doubt you're going to find fault with and dismiss whatever evidence anyone produces).

[CharleeFoxtrot, BSN, RN]

I admire the patience and fortitude of the posters here who are willing to spend time and effort finding and posting articles and studies (I used to be one of them), but I'm no longer willing to play that game (which is what it ends up being from your "side" -- I've no doubt you're going to find fault with and dismiss whatever evidence anyone produces).

As a veteran of many a flame war, I too have retired from that battle and deleted links to my quotes and cites. I learned it's only a game if you play it.

[klone, MSN, RN]

Please, I did not think you to one to be so disingenuous.

Not at all. I did not for a second think Folks was talking about you. Why on earth would s/he call suspect you of being a bot. It didn't make any sense. I was just making a lighthearted attempt at pointing that out.

[klone, MSN, RN]

My biggest problem is that other, proven, methods of disease reduction, such as good hand hygiene and staying the heck home when sick, are being put to the side, because of being vaxed.

Luckily, you can do all of those things AND get the vaccine, which will prove more effective at preventing influenza than any single measure alone. Nobody is suggesting we can all eschew hand hygiene or staying home when I'll because we got the vaccine.

any with large randomized cohorts? with control of confounding variables? if so, please point out. because otherwise they are pretty much worthless.

There are not only dozens of RCTs on all types of influenza vaccine efficacy there are at least three major meta-analysis of RCTs of influenza VE. Here is one:

Pooled analysis of 17 RCTs demonstrated 59% pooled VE after controlling for confounders or a median of 62% with raw data.

Osterholm, M. T., Kelley, N. S., Sommer, A., & Belongia, E. A. (2012). Efficacy and effectiveness of influenza vaccines: a systematic review and meta-analysis. The Lancet infectious diseases, 12(1), 36-44.

[K9lover, ASN, RN]

Where are they going to go when everyone has this policy? It is everywhere, I do not object to vaccine nor am I allergic to any ingredients however I would prefer the choice were mine. I no longer work @ hospitals, last time I did and went on down to occupational health the nurse wanted to ascertain I knew all potential side effects then she freaked out when I said I had no choice so why go over that information. She said "NO, it is voluntary!" I told her it really wasn't voluntary...she was thinking along lines of litigation should anyone have a terrible side effect and she should. If anyone popped up with a severe side effects they would have a boatload of evidence up to and including nurses being fired for refusal. Given I want to keep my job and hospitals etc...have a 5000 page policy book making it likely a large percentage of us have violated a policy we did not know of anyone is disposable. That being said any nurse who developed a severe side effect could most likely win a lawsuit based upon that 'not a choice' vaccine.