One of my colleagues' husband has just got a job transfer to a region that is not midwife friendly, so she's job searching in the new city. There are no open positions for a midwife and she doesn't want to do bedside labor and delivery. She sent her resume to the hospital recruiter who asked her if she would be interested in interviewing for a nurse manager position for the emergency room. My colleague has never worked as an emergency nurse. Sounds out-of-step but the hospital has a goal of filling all management positions with MSN-prepared nursing staff.
This is a smaller hospital, around 120 beds? Maybe less?
She thinks this may be a good opportunity to bring midwifery into this hospital....eventually...but right now she needs a job. She is very open minded and has a great work ethic. She understands this is a different area--but she hasn't been offered the job and unsure if she should even interview.
Has anyone taken a position before as a manager in an area of nursing where you didn't have experience? How did it work out?
Any insight is welcome....granted, we have all had majority underqualified managers in our careers. However, my colleague is the type that truly listens and is flexible...we are going to hate to lose her in our practice.
Sooo not a good idea. Like others have said, I'd have to question the motives of a hospital that's willing to hire someone with ZERO experience as manager of an ER. What often happens is they hire you, give you a short "honeymoon" period, and then the responsibility for everything that goes sideways is laid at your feet, and you get thrown under the bus when the excrement collides with the oscillating ventilation system. It's happened to me before and my career barely survived it. ☹️
The hospital where I work (where I used to be a manager) has a leadership program for all new managers. There has been more than one, very successful managers, that has been hired from the floor....but I have never seen this happen outside of the department....thus my question.
Even if you were a manager of another department, such as med-surg, etc...the ER is such a different department I'm not sure how helpful that would be in any sense.
If a manager can't step into my position and do a decent job, I lose some respect for him/her. How can someone lead others when they don't know the job well enough to see the problems, stresses, and issues of said job. Managers should be able to be resources for their staff.
She has decided to decline the opportunity for an interview...but we discussed what you mentioned as well. It was one of the first issues I brought up.
She is the listening type. Compassionate. Very much believes if you are in a group of people and everyone supports Option A, it's probably the right way to go.
I've never heard this term. Is it referring to passive aggressive behavior on the part of the rank-and-file?
Quote
Malicious compliance is the behavior of intentionally inflicting harm by strictly following the orders of a superior knowing that compliance with the orders will not have the intended result. The term usually implies the following of an order in such a way that ignores the order's intent but follows it to the letter.
My coworker on inpatient adult psych went from charge nurse on an inpatient psych unit to night supervisor of a small community hospital, overseeing ALL units. She did not survive there and came back to work in our crisis unit after 3 months. Incidentally, she was furious with me for encouraging her to take that job offer and it destroyed our relationship. I hope your friend is not so irresponsible as to hold you accountable to her life decisions, but I'm just sharing the info to impress how badly it went for her.
Ya know, sometimes things just don't turn out. It is a shame she blamed you.
Specializes in Specializes in L/D, newborn, GYN, LTC, Dialysis.
21 hours ago, SummerGarden said:
I am a former Trauma RN. I have worked in small rural EDs and big urban Trauma EDs. I had one manager literally walk off the job one night when we called her in because we were short staffed. She thought she only need to drop by and provide us with ra-ra emotional support. However, the charge nurse informed her that we needed her to take patients. Thus, before she went to her office to get her purse and walk out and never return, her response was as follows: "I have been a manager for 15 years! I am not taking patients! That is not what I was told this job was about! I am giving my resignation now."
Front-line managers in nursing within the hospital setting are no longer office-and-meeting-attending-only jobs. If this is a front-line department management position (and most are), she will be expected to perform bedside ED work. She will not receive an orientation like that of staff RNs, but the expectations will be that she can perform the job of a competent staff RN when needed. Therefore, I highly suggest that: 1.) Your friend go to the interview to practice interviewing skills and 2.) She not accept the position if offered.
Good luck to your friend.
Yep. I felt that way many times. But I did realize that I was never permanently to stop working the floor. But I stressed out over every callout wondering if it could be filled or if I just added more onto my plate. I never minded working the floor; it kept me in the loop w/patients and staff. But it got pretty hard when I lost 2 full time nurses. Then it was all the time.
Not to mention covering vacations on top of the occasional sick call.
The honeymoon period lasted about 3 or 4 months before my reality check came via registered mail. I think turning down the position was a smart choice.
Isn't it horrible when they have you do the job you were hired for and then a bit later, add on a whole other full time job to the full time job you are doing. That happened to me in LTC once, as the ADON, they had me cover the skilled unit as the administration took their own sweet time finding a replacement supervisor. They never did, so I took the job after two months of trying to do both. I had fewer responsibilities and made more money, until 2 weeks later they gave me an extra hall of 20 beds and took my QMA, leaving me 100% responsible for the care of 50 people, charting, assessments, medications and treatments and supervising the aides. I became ill and resigned. Administration does not care about nurses. this has been proven over and over
My take on this is that is extremely presumptuous and an insult to the staff that he/she is in oversees! How can a nurse manager who really doesn't have an intimate knowledge of the particulars of these nurse's jobs, somehow give an accurate performance appraisal to them when the time comes? I think that an effective NM should be able to competently step into the staff nurses' role at any time!
Specializes in Adult and pediatric emergency and critical care.
Two things in particular concern me. First the fact that the hospital values a MSN more than any other quality. To me that is a huge red flag and not something that should be taken lightly.
Second that your wife doesn't want to do bedside nursing but was okay with the idea of managing bedside nurses. ED nurses especially are hostile towards anyone who tells them how to do their job but isn't willing to show up and get their hand dirty.
I don't necessarily have a problem with an ED manager who doesn't have ED experience. Many of our critical care units work very closely (NICU, PICU, ICU, L&D, and BMT) and there are times when nursing leadership from another department has to step in for a short period of time for whatever reason. It doesn't mean that they are an instantaneous expert in the field, but we also have to have a great amount of introspection and humility.
I also want to say that I've had providers (Docs, NPs, CRNAs, CNMs, PAs, and so on) who have been very willing to help with the 'bedside' tasks. I had a CNM who held a mom's hand and did the 'nursing' tasks who was laboring in the ED as I placed central access, and then helped us to changed her bedding after she labored and before we took her up to the unit. Our providers work with nursing not above them.
Two things in particular concern me. First the fact that the hospital values a MSN more than any other quality. To me that is a huge red flag and not something that should be taken lightly.
Second that your wife doesn't want to do bedside nursing but was okay with the idea of managing bedside nurses. ED nurses especially are hostile towards anyone who tells them how to do their job but isn't willing to show up and get their hand dirty.
I don't necessarily have a problem with an ED manager who doesn't have ED experience. Many of our critical care units work very closely (NICU, PICU, ICU, L&D, and BMT) and there are times when nursing leadership from another department has to step in for a short period of time for whatever reason. It doesn't mean that they are an instantaneous expert in the field, but we also have to have a great amount of introspection and humility.
I also want to say that I've had providers (Docs, NPs, CRNAs, CNMs, PAs, and so on) who have been very willing to help with the 'bedside' tasks. I had a CNM who held a mom's hand and did the 'nursing' tasks who was laboring in the ED as I placed central access, and then helped us to changed her bedding after she labored and before we took her up to the unit. Our providers work with nursing not above them.
This isn't my wife..I am a female, this is a CNM colleague of mine, who is a female and her husband has a job transfer.
I need to clarify something.....
Please don't assume she isn't willing to do bedside NURSING TASKS...that is very different from working as a bedside nurse. All of us at my practice help the L&D nurses with laboring, positioning, cleanup, etc.
When you have been an advanced practice nurse for many years, spent over $50,000 on your education, have enjoyed a salary of around $105K a year and your family has grown to rely on that income and NEEDS that level of income (because when your income changes, your lifestyle changes..people should not be criticized for rewarding themselves for hard work)....why do you think it's a terrible thing not to want to work as a bedside nurse when at this particular hospital in a fairly small area, L&D nurses only get paid around $23/hr and that doesn't even include money lost through low-census.
So there is a difference between being unwilling to do bedside NURSING TASKS and unwilling to work for BEDSIDE NURSING PAY.
Would you want to take a $60K a year pay cut? Do you think that would impact your family's finances? It sure would have a drastic impact on the finances of most people.
So please...let's not "down" APRNs for not wanting to use their level of education they worked so hard to obtain. Yes, managing a department is not the same as managing patients and conditions...but everyone can learn to do the job. When I did work bedside, every single nurse manager I ever had was hired directly from the floor.
If she was applying for a job as a nurse manager over L&D, I wouldn't have even posted this question.
This set up generally does not work well. There is some reason this hospital has to consider an CNM to run their ER. Meaning they can't find a manager who understands ER nursing and knows how an ER should run. So, they will take a midwife.
If she is an experienced and skilled manager, and there is a good structure in place to allow somebody ignorant of how ERs run to manage, it could work. Would there be middle management or charge nurses to guide her? If all she has to do is meetings and paperwork and scheduling, and can rely on the judgement and experience of a few qualified people, it could work.
Is she a highly qualified manager?
If she does take the job I strongly recommend she insist on spending at least a couple weeks hands on in the ER. The nurses will not expect her to have ER expertise, and will respect her willingness to learn a bit about the job, And, if she is helping hands when it gets busy, that will also be respected.
Specializes in Adult and pediatric emergency and critical care.
On 5/12/2019 at 11:32 AM, Jory said:
This isn't my wife..I am a female, this is a CNM colleague of mine, who is a female and her husband has a job transfer.
I was probably tired when I wrote my reply and forgot or accidentally erased or whatever-ed the word friend. But since it seems to be an issue I'm sorry that I made the offense of saying that you have a wife.
On 5/12/2019 at 11:32 AM, Jory said:
I need to clarify something.....
Please don't assume she isn't willing to do bedside NURSING TASKS...that is very different from working as a bedside nurse. All of us at my practice help the L&D nurses with laboring, positioning, cleanup, etc.
When you have been an advanced practice nurse for many years, spent over $50,000 on your education, have enjoyed a salary of around $105K a year and your family has grown to rely on that income and NEEDS that level of income (because when your income changes, your lifestyle changes..people should not be criticized for rewarding themselves for hard work)....why do you think it's a terrible thing not to want to work as a bedside nurse when at this particular hospital in a fairly small area, L&D nurses only get paid around $23/hr and that doesn't even include money lost through low-census.
So there is a difference between being unwilling to do bedside NURSING TASKS and unwilling to work for BEDSIDE NURSING PAY.
Would you want to take a $60K a year pay cut? Do you think that would impact your family's finances? It sure would have a drastic impact on the finances of most people.
So please...let's not "down" APRNs for not wanting to use their level of education they worked so hard to obtain. Yes, managing a department is not the same as managing patients and conditions...but everyone can learn to do the job. When I did work bedside, every single nurse manager I ever had was hired directly from the floor.
If she was applying for a job as a nurse manager over L&D, I wouldn't have even posted this question.
Meh, I make more than our APRNs and PAs so I'm not really going to buy into this argument. They (your friends/coworkers/associates/non-offensive social relationship identifier) choose their lifestyle and their jobs, so I'm not going to commiserate with their financials woes. I'm also not going to buy that finances are why someone should choose to work in a department they aren't appropriate for just so they can continue to make expensive car payments and take exotic vacations. I also would never work somewhere that only values my profession at $23 an hour, again people have free will and make choices.
I don't think you can really defend the who idea of not downing APRNs who want to "use their level of education" when your friend was applying to manage a unit that isn't applicable to her advanced practice nor would she be using her advanced practice education for the vast majority of patients, let alone increased scope. She's was apparently okay with giving up the APRN part, just not the money.
You asked for opinions, you got mine. You don't have to like it or agree with it, but I still get to have my own.
If a manager can't step into my position and do a decent job, I lose some respect for him/her. How can someone lead others when they don't know the job well enough to see the problems, stresses, and issues of said job. Managers should be able to be resources for their staff.
I have noticed a trend lately in nursing settings, some managers are not nurses. They are people with business degrees. If you are the only nurse on your shift and your manager can't help you with nursing related stuff, then what is the point, it is like you are running the place yourself.
Jory, MSN, APRN, CNM
1,486 Posts
The hospital where I work (where I used to be a manager) has a leadership program for all new managers. There has been more than one, very successful managers, that has been hired from the floor....but I have never seen this happen outside of the department....thus my question.
Even if you were a manager of another department, such as med-surg, etc...the ER is such a different department I'm not sure how helpful that would be in any sense.