Is it true that a BSN will be mandatory soon?

[szccdw]

An instructor of mine (I'm in another state) stated that she recently went to a national educators conference and that they were saying that within the next several years in NY it would be mandatory to have your BSN. Does anyone know anything about this? Thanks

[jjjoy, LPN]

Traumahawk - I want to attend your nursing school! Where you learn what you really need to do the job... which does often include physical exertion and stamina! And doesn't usually include needing an in depth comprehension of disease process or pharmacology or family dynamics or statistics or... name the area. And how about writing clear, direct questions on the NCLEX that ask fact-based questions or clear prioritization questions. I've taken many different kinds of tests and written some as well, and NCLEX style questions can be horribly inexact... especially ones written by instructors for day to day tests that don't have the same kind of review for inclusion on the test as actual NCLEX questions.

I'm going off on an tangent here, but wanted to comment that my nursing school emphasized that nursing has its own professional knowledge base. I agree that nursing has its own function and perspective in health care, but the knowledge base most certainly crosses boundaries with medicine, psychology, social work and more!! I can see the impetus for NANDA nursing diagnoses but think they make the basics more complicated than need be and don't help much with the complexities of real world nursing.

Patients should ambulate post-op ASAP to lower the risk of venous emboli. Patients with eating/digestive problems are at risk for malnutrition. I see no need to rephrase that in a formal, convoluted nursing diagnosis. Of course, the nurse should know the symptoms, risk factors, pathophys basics... and THAT is what nursing school is for!

Should nursing school provide more than just an introduction to clinical work? Is it to "train" students as nurses or just to prepare them to be "new trainee nurses" who aren't REALLY nurses (in the functional sense of the word) until after working a year or two?

Back to what would a more practical nursing curriculum include? How about a juggling course? I personally think THAT would be good prep as well!!

And I've probably already commented on this long, endless thread that one possible education variation is to separate nursing education from college degrees completely, perhaps minimally requiring an associate's degree that includes all pre-nursing coursework (or requiring any unrelated degree and required pre-reqs) and then a one year intensive clinically-focused program for the entry-level license??

And a bachelor's degree in a related, relevant field would be sufficient for professional advancement (eg health administration, applied health sciences, public health, psychology, etc).

I do find this topic fascinating, even as frustrating and divisive as it can be. : )

[traumahawk99]

.! And doesn't usually include needing an in depth comprehension of disease process or pharmacology or family dynamics or statistics or... name the area. .

i will gladly name the area! where did i say you don't need an in depth understanding or comprehension of disease processes or pharmacology? the point i'm making is that this is addressed just as well at the adn level. if you're telling me that bsn level nurses have such a superior technical education, then do they understand the in depth chemical processes of the clotting cascade? after all, that would be the next level of understanding beyond the adn level of simply knowing that there were two clotting pathways, intrinsic and extrinsic, managed by heparin (antidote protamine sulfate) and coumadin (antidote vitamin k) and the relevent labs are ptt and pt/inr. this is what i learned in my adn program. what more do you truly know? (i already know you won't answer this question, because you don't know anything more) what more do you need to know? how is it that you've got this superior techinical knowedge?

as far as education in family dynamics, at the bsn level this is nothing more than pompous windbagging. it is utterly useless to an entry level nurse. like i'm going to go in there and apply a nursing diagnosis of "impaired family functioning" while i'm juggling ( great idea!) the needs of my other 5 or 6 patients. the idea that these courses convert one into a crack psychologist who, like little miss know it all do goody, steps in and solves long running family problems with a single therapuetic word because, by golly, she's had her bsn family dynamics course is laughable. that fallacy belongs only in bsn programs. the second you hit the real world, all that fluff dissolves into nothingness. it is useless. requiring it of an entry level nurse is irresponsible.

i have yet to see a bsn nurse whip out her statistics on the floor and make a difference in the lives of her patients. perhaps i'm jaded, having had engineering calculus in another discipline, so take it for granted that people can do the simple math that it takes to make it on the floor. i've seen bsn nurses who couldn't even convert ounces to milliliters. i suppose that rigorous statistics trainig must have failed (and let's get over it, it's INTRO TO STATISTICS, hardy a doctorate level course). and, yes, by the way, i've forgotton most all of my calculus, since i haven't used it in years. do bsn level nurses retain their statistics knowledge even though it is in fact never used on the floor? another totally useless course for an entry level nurse.

And how about writing clear, direct questions on the NCLEX that ask fact-based questions or clear prioritization questions. I've taken many different kinds of tests and written some as well, and NCLEX style questions can be horribly inexact... especially ones written by instructors for day to day tests that don't have the same kind of review for inclusion on the test as actual NCLEX questions.

i'd say the nclex exam does test the ability to think, at a very basic level. would you want someone who couldn't think their way through that test nursing your family? it astounds me that people whine about that exam when 85% pass it. i took it in an hour and it stopped at the minimum number of questions. i would in fact say it is too easy. try a truly difficult professional exam like the cpa exam, where the pass rate on any of the 4 parts is only 40%, and you've got to pass all 4 parts. take that, and you'll have a little more perspective about what the term "technically rigorous" means.

Patients should ambulate post-op ASAP to lower the risk of venous emboli. Patients with eating/digestive problems are at risk for malnutrition. I see no need to rephrase that in a formal, convoluted nursing diagnosis. Of course, the nurse should know the symptoms, risk factors, pathophys basics... and THAT is what nursing school is for!

are you suggesting that this isn't addressed by adn level programs? that's news to me, since i learned that in my adn program. but if you've discovered that it's not, then by all means you should alert the public! after all, you've had your bsn community course,

so why aren't you sounding the alert :). ???

don't take anything here too personally. i'm exaggerating a bit to make a few points. after all, that is what discussion is for :).

the bottom line comes down to what should be required to enter the profession. and the answer to that at rn level is the adn. that is what is required. the fact that there are bsn, msn, and phd level nursing programs is irrelevant to the fact that adn programs produce nurses who can function as entry level trainees. requiring a bsn would only impose a compleltely unnecessary barrier to entry in the profession and exacerbate staffiing shortages, to the great detriment of society. it is absolutely a selfish, self centered approach to inflict this shortage on society in order to appease the psychological needs of folks who run bsn programs, so they can have their nice and tidy little "profession" under their control.

[jjjoy, LPN]

I'm in no way arguing BSN is better and I wasn't being sarcastic, seriously! You make a good point that the depth of content for basic nursing care probably doesn't necessitate any major additions to that which is already required... in other words, ADN or diploma content IS sufficient and there's no PRACTICAL NEED for an expanded, field-wide entry level requirement of BSN. The push for BSN is often an issue of perceived qualifications and abilities.

Nurses in specialty areas DO need a more in depth comprehension of certain medical issues, but is general entry-level nursing education supposed to address that? It doesn't seem possible to cover all possible specialities to the degree necessary without substantially increasing the length of nursing education. And would that be "wasting time" of those nurses who aren't planning on working in a critical specialty? Maybe basic nursing education should primarily focus on med-surg and additional certification/degree/course would cover specialties like L&D and critical care. Sounds more time effective to me than trying to touch on all possible nursing specialties during entry-level training.

My point regarding nursing diagnosis has nothing to do with minimal entry requirements (eg ADN vs. BSN). It's a tangent that some parts of nursing education (in my opinion, convoluted nursing diagnoses) could be considered "fluff" and could be cut out without compromising the content and quality of the education.

In regard to NCLEX, I'm not arguing that it's too difficult, but simply that it seems that many questions do NOT test nursing knowledge or judgement, but instead test one's ability to figure out the "best" answer based on how NCLEX questions are usually written. This can be especially true of some instructor-written questions that have multiple "correct" answers that could be argued as "the best" - thus it's not about assessing nursing knowledge but one's ability to figure out what that specific question is aiming at based on how the question is worded and what choices are presented.

I don't think NCLEX is necessarily a good measure of one's basic preparedness for entry-level nursing and yet most schools gear all of their tests to match this style question, instead of testing for straight out knowledge and a basic ability to prioritize based on a heirarchy of patient needs & comprehension of nursing and medical needs and interventions. "Teaching to the test" does a disservice, I think.

[Miss Mab]

Speaking of witch do you are anyone else expect that standardizing nursing education at the BSN level will result in nursing wages being raised to the professional level? If so how will this happen?

I'll play because lordy knows there's nothing I enjoy more than a few ******* to brighten my AM's....

Two off the top of my head reasons:

1) Less Supply--plain and simple. Having the required degree and skills in demand makes one a much more potent negotiator. You may call it a barrier to the field while I choose to see it as, at most, an obstacle for some. People with hardship circumstances make it through college everyday. It can be done and we may find as pay and professionally respectful environments each increase, more and more baccalaureate students would choose nursing on entry thus negating the potential 'loss', though I don't embrace that loss as a likely reality, of those who choose not to pursue this newer, perhaps longer road to nursing for whatever personal reasons. A lot of people can't/don't want to tackle other educational tracks either. To each his own. A lot of times life is about the tough choices.I used to want to be an astronaut but BS I was gonna sit through all that would be required of that path.(I did settle for the Air Force, but somehow it's not quite the same.........)

I digress.

2) Increased pay would also come in the form of competition to keep the nurses, in fact, nursing. If every staff nurse held at least a bachelor's degree there are infinitely more career options suddenly open to them that simply are not viable to their vocationally or diploma prepared counterparts. It just is. Seriously, how much of a real threat is it to 'walk' from your staff job(along with all of the valuable experience and knowledge you possess) when your employer knows that the only career you're educationally prepared for is, you guessed it, bedside nursing. Kind of an empty one, really, when the likey alternatives are even lower paying fields that on average would require not even associate level college study. Oh, and let's not forget the gazillions of new CC grads who are churned out every six months by the JC down the street. It's just Cog trading. With the current system, I don't blame facilities for not focusing on retention, quality of workplace/staffing and monetary issues. Why should they bother?

Finally, I really don't generally get involved in this discussion much anymore as there are really only two thoughts at play here. Either people are purposely denying reality and just pretending they don't follow the usually logical and empirically convincing argument for the bachelor's requirement or else, frankly, some just honestly can't comprehend the debate which somehow then causes them to immediately jump to the defensive and make pointless(and basely off topic) arguments about who is better, skill duels and endless diatribes of 'well at my school' and the like. Truly, either mindset is too frightening/annoying for my tastes.

But, I do have to wonder this. I was no big fan of my BSN program, trust me, though i do concede they afforded me a very indepth course of study, but how exactly is one able to discern that BS level community health, patho, HC economics, pharm, leadership, professional development, etc. are pure 'fluff' with no firsthand knowledge of the courses themselves? I guess I find it odd as your description of your job in nursing is nowhere close to either what I do at work or even remotely how I am able to express my role to others. Is the disconnect a function of differing educational paths or educational models I wonder? A different mindset of learned expectation? Or perhaps none of the above.

********Full disclosure, I am in the midst of jumping ship from nursing at the RN level as this square peg would never stand in the way of, or embrace for that matter, the round holed joint cause of unified lowered expectations. But i do support everyone's right to fight for their own status quo....

[FA to CRNA2b]

There are not many positions in other fields in which you can be considered a "professional" unless you have a bachelor's degree. Why does nursing settle for less?

*** How many of those other fields punch a time clock in and out of work factory-worker-style as nurses do?

I'm an RN-BSN and agree that the entry level should be at a bachelor's level. This has nothing to do with clinical skills as traumahawk99 has said. It has to do with elevating the nursing profession as a whole, education wise.

I'm also a flight attendant and to point out one of the professions that clock in and out--I work with many pilots who are highly skilled professionals. They clock in and out. The top-paid captains can earn $250 per hour. A college degree is not required, but assumed. Having that degree does not make a pilot more capable in flying, but it is almost impossible to get hired without one. Being a professional and earning the public's respect encompasses more than having a set of skills. It includes a higher global education, much of which do not directly relate to the task at hand.

[lindarn]

I'm an RN-BSN and agree that the entry level should be at a bachelor's level. This has nothing to do with clinical skills as traumahawk99 has said. It has to do with elevating the nursing profession as a whole, education wise.

I'm also a flight attendant and to point out one of the professions that clock in and out--I work with many pilots who are highly skilled professionals. They clock in and out. The top-paid captains can earn $250 per hour. A college degree is not required, but assumed. Having that degree does not make a pilot more capable in flying, but it is almost impossible to get hired without one. Being a professional and earning the public's respect encompasses more than having a set of skills. It includes a higher global education, much of which do not directly relate to the task at hand.

Unfortunately, too many nurses don't know, what they don't know, because they don't know. I couldn't agree more with the above letters. This is what I have been saying for years. There IS a glut of nurses coming out of community colleges every six minths. Hospitals have no reason to focus on retention when every six months another group of newbies graduate from ABC Community College. There is nothing wrong with making hospitals wait for a class to graduate in four years.

As it was stated above, BSNs have more job oppurtunities than ADNs and Diploma grads. A Diploma in nursing is a dead end career. You have no college credit to further your education. ADNs at least are half way there. You are a captive employee without a BSN, and hospitals know it. Why do think that they don't want to pay more for a BSN? Why do you think that they tell you that you don't need a BSN?

It shouldn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out. And there is more opportunity in BSN program to add classes that may not be aimed at patient care, are geared towards the nurses to better deal with the working environment. As I have stated many times before, the law of supply and demand is against us when there are so many new grads come out out of school looking for jobs.

PTs, OTs, are all happy that they are now a graduate level entry into practice. Now tell me, why in earth does a Physical Therapist need a doctorate as entry into practice? What possible benefit is there to the patient? I have never heard of a PT killing someone by exercising them too much, or an incorrect exercise harming a patient. Why then did they go to a doctorate? Too keep there numbers low, and keep themselves in demand. PT ASSISTANTS have an Associates degree as entry into practice. That should tell you something right there. A higher level of education distinguishes you from the lower level of practitioners in your field. A BSN carries alot more weight than an Associates degree or a diploma. It is a far higher stretch for a hospital to tell the public that a PT Assistant with an Associates degree delivers the same level of care than a Physical Therapist with a doctorate. They are then harder to replace with a lesser educated individual.

In nursing, we look like we are a dime a dozen. And that ANYONE CAN DO OUR JOB. I never thought that I would see the day when nurses aides were passing meds ANYPLACE! But here they are in our nursing homes and assisted living facilities.

It is all about perception. If the public thinks that educated nurses are worth the money, they will demand them over a nurses aide. But we have to educate the public that we are worth it. How does it look to the public that we have only two years of education, LPNs only one? We look like we are easily interchangeable with lesser educated workers. And rest assured, hospitals are going to capitalize on that as the baby bomer population ages and needs more care. We have to demand our piece of tha pie before we ar cut out and eliminated from the pie. You can count on it.

Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN

Spokane, Washington

[againstthegrain08]

I did a paper about this in school it is in fact true. I was wondering do you know of any information about any accredited online nursing schools that provide RN to MSN. I presently have a ADN with no prior higher education.

[BBFRN, BSN, PhD]

I did a paper about this in school it is in fact true. I was wondering do you know of any information about any accredited online nursing schools that provide RN to MSN. I presently have a ADN with no prior higher education.

You can find information about online schools in the Distance Learning forum, and can start a thread with that question too, if you wish.

[suzy253, RN]

A Diploma in nursing is a dead end career. You have no college credit to further your education.

Wrong again! We do have college credits and they're transferrable to further our education if we so desire. We take nursing and related courses for three years...not two. Diploma grads have the highest passing rates on the NCLEX. Six of my fellow grads went right into ICU....one is already taking additional courses to become a nurse practioner.

[FA to CRNA2b]

There is a tech on my unit that has some awesome skills. She can pretty much insert an IV or Foley with one hand, blind-folded. She's not even close to being a nurse.

There are some ADN nurses who have stated that their CC programs offer more clinical time than BSN programs. This is not true. The clinical time is the same and is mandated by the state. It's just that if that is mostly what your program entails, it SEEMS like you have more clinical time.

Anyway, I wish that some of my skills were as good as our techs' but I know that I would blow her away on any type of research paper. hehe

[oakbourne]

I agree with Cheerfulldoer. The day when CEO's will think about nurses and our plight and not the almight dollar will help empower nurses. The day your nurse manager knows how to manage instead of taking the easy and lazy way of managing and not supporting the nursing staff will empower nurses. The day the DON actually respects nurses and does not rule above in their ivory towers and call nurses "bottom feeders" will empower nurses. The day that nurses and hospital administrators do not eat their young and actually care for and nuture them will empower nurses. The list goes on and on, but you get the point.

[BBFRN, BSN, PhD]

Oakbourne, I agree with much of what you said, but I'm of the mind that we as nurses should work to empower ourselves. If we wait for those above us to do it, we're going to be waiting a long time.