Is it true that a BSN will be mandatory soon?

mcorrao77 · Jun 4, 2005

i know exactly where you're coming from. i'm proud to say that i too have my b.s. degree, though it's not in nursing. my main complaint about this whole situation is that even if all nurses have their bsn's, they will still end up doing the same exact job that nurses currently do now. it won't change the job description. the same knowledge will be used that is currently used by adn and bsn nurses today. the only benefits to a bsn are the added management and research classes. those are great if you plan on pursuing nursing research or if you want to be a manager. however, one or two classes in management will not necessarily make a leader.
i see nursing as a professional job now. having a bsn won't necessarily make it more of a "profession." it's unfortunate, but the nursing profession does not always get the respect it truly deserves. i feel a lot of it boils down to the environment some nurses have created within the world of nursing. it seems that most of the problems i read about on this board carry a common theme...nurses eating their young or some kind of bullying. even though most nurses don't conduct themselves this way, it only takes a few to affect the entire profession. it almost mirrors high school and jr high bullying. this is probably why some in other health care professions treat nureses less like professionals and more like children sometimes. if nurses want to be respected as they very well should be, then they must start by respecting one another first. that's professionalism. it's really hard to treat someone disrespectfully when that person carries an air of professionalism at all times. i'm not sure that having a bsn will altogether catapult the nursing profession to a higher playing field though. higher standards aren't just about having a higher degree. it's also about standards of conduct. i would respect a person more who sets higher standards for themselves than one who lacks those standards...bsn or not.
sorry! i didn't mean to go off on a tangent. if there were any real added benefit for the entire nursing population to get their bsn, i'd be all for it. that's why i feel that if any state wants to require a bsn, then in order to be fair it should not be retroactive. it should only affect those students who have not yet started a program.

but, if all the nurses started out on the same foot (bsn), then maybe there won't be so much animousity between the two degree levels. we would all be "equal". not saying that we aren't now!! we are, but it would the same education levels across the board.

Soleilpie · Jun 4, 2005

but, if all the nurses started out on the same foot (bsn), then maybe there won't be so much animousity between the two degree levels. we would all be "equal". not saying that we aren't now!! we are, but it would the same education levels across the board.

i understand completely what you're saying. however, i'm not sure that forcing nurses to go back to school is the answer. the cheapest and best way is to have nurses respect one another regardless of what degree/degrees they have obtained. if a nurse wants to create a divide amongst nurses based on what degrees everyone has, then the problem lies with that particular person and not the other nurses. nurses with that kind of attitude shouldn't be in a professional position such as nursing but regrettably they are and will probably continue to be as long as disrespect and unprofessionalism are allowed to saturate the nursing profession. i'm all for education; i'm just not for forcing it unnecessarily on people.

caroladybelle, BSN, RN · Jun 5, 2005

But, if all the nurses started out on the same foot (BSN), then maybe there won't be so much animousity between the two degree levels. We would all be "equal". Not saying that we aren't now!! We are, but it would the same education levels across the board.

That theory is much in doubt, as most of us have no idea what degree one another holds. If we do not know each others' degrees, why would a change in it alter attitudes and behavior.

(And quite frankly, we only care whether our coworkers are good nurses...something that degrees have little to do with).

NurseBunky · Jun 5, 2005

My mom (whose been a nurse for the past 18 years) said they were talking about the same thing when she graduated with her ADN. They haven't changed anything yet. Imagine..the shortage is pretty bad now. I would think it would get worse if it took someone 5 years to graduate instead of 4.

Don't get me wrong I am currently in an excellent ADN program and do plan on getting my BSN later but I'm not looking forward to taking statistics, another chemistry, and a hole bunch of nurse management classes. I dont ever plan on being a head nurse but I do want to be an anesthetist or practioner. Want not have more RN-MSN programs vs RN-BSN programs?

Daytonite, BSN, RN · Jun 5, 2005

An instructor of mine (I'm in another state) stated that she recently went to a national educators conference and that they were saying that within the next several years in NY it would be mandatory to have your BSN. Does anyone know anything about this? Thanks

They were saying this when I went to my first California Student Nurses Association meeting back in 1974! And, they were saying that New York was going to be the first to enact it. ANA has been behind this idea of every nurse getting a BSN for years. It's 31 years later.

It's a grand idea, but there are some very practical problems to carrying it out. Mainly, which schools are going to be able to offer such baccalaureate programs. Nursing programs cost colleges a lot more than their other degreed programs. The schools can barely turn out enough nurses now. There are more AA nursing programs than BSN programs, aren't there? It seems to me that any state doing this would be severely cutting off their supply of new nurses by enacting this kind of legislation unless they plan it out very carefully. They would have to deal with grandfathering in older nurses and what to do about people wanting reciprocity from other states. No one would want to move into their state if they didn't have a BSN because they wouldn't be able to get licensed.

It ought to drive wages up real high though! :)

Daytonite, BSN, RN · Jun 5, 2005

I'm a new RN who graduated from a BS nursing program recently. Since there was no state school within 150 miles, I chose to go to a private college (and racked up a boatload of loans in the process). Only one area hospital is offering any differential for BSN ($.25 an hour), which I find disheartening. I was fortunate to receive merit scholarships that covered half of my tuition, but I still have more than $30,000 of loans outstanding.

Come out to the Golden State. Wages and differentials are pretty good here.

RNPATL, DNP, RN · Jun 5, 2005

I have to agree that changing entry-level into nursing has been a common thread of discussion for years. Back when I was in LPN training in 1983, they scared us and told us that LPN's would be phased out. Then, after I finished my RN, instructors told us that the ADN level would change and BSN would be the new entry-level for nursing ..... none of it happened. But, does it need to happen and if so, how do we fit all the different and needed levels in nursing that exist today?

First, I am almost finished with my BSN and will agree that there is no major incentive offered by my employer. That is sad, but true. Second, I am really going to disagree that BSN programs are fluff and they add a few courses on research here and management there. Simply not true. My BSN courses have been comprehensive and I have learned a great deal. Is this making me a better nurse? Sure! Remember ... Nursing is a life long learning profession. To hear any nurse say that they "don't" need more education is sad. Yes, in fact, you do need more education ... everyday things change .... technology is advancing and we, as nurses, need to be on the cutting edge of learning these things. Does that mean that the entry-level into nursing needs to change? Perhaps .... but I believe there is a place for every level! LPN's ... a great group of nurses that are well trained .... we need them .... ADN/Diploma nurses have been and continue to be the backbone of the profession ... according to NOADN (National Organization for Associate Degree Nurses), ADN nurses make-up close to 60% of the total nursing work force. 60%! That is a lot of nurses folks.

I think New Yoirk needs to really look at it's strategies for implementing a total BSN entry-level .... while in theory it sounds good ... the practical nature of nursing and the lack of accessible and affordable BSN programs is going to put a real wrinkle in their plans .... the problem here is that patients will suffer from the lack of nurses and lack of care.

Do we need to move to BSN entry-level? That is a highly personal question that we can answer in our own way. As a profession, we need to make some decisions so that young people can look at nursing as a valuable and respectable profession .... perhaps the BSN will do this ... perhaps not.

It is all good discussion .... but that is all it is ... discussion. Wasn't North or South Dakota a total BSN State and then they reversed that decision because of severe RN shortages?

I don't know what the answer is ... but as a profession, we need to be on the same page together, one way or the other for sure!

natasha700 · Jun 5, 2005

I really do not think having a BSN will make a nurse better! I have no qualms seeking higher education but forcing someone to have BSN to practice defeats the purpose. If it would significantly raise the their salary I could see it as an incentive but unfortunately it does not. If one does accquire a BSN it is a personal endeavor that nursing employers don't appreciate. I have a BSN and I really don't see the difference in my fellow co-workers who only have an associate degree we both can function in the same capacity. If I choose to be in a managerial role that would be the only difference I could see and even that wouldn't matter because some people with graduate degrees make lousy leaders.

natasha700 · Jun 5, 2005

I agree that a BSN is a positive thing and helps you to explore other areas of nursing.
But as far as the social workers and other disciplines who look down on non-BSN nurses and resent us for making more money than them....too bad!!
I'm sure that no one forced them to choose a non-nursing degree in college and the last time I checked, none of them have to clean up body fluids to earn a paycheck.
As far as MD's go, I've met maybe 2 in my 7 years of nursing that are even remotely aware that different levels of nursing education even exist. Most think that there are nurses and aides, period. Nothing more.
I guess I'll find out firsthand when I finally do get my BSN but from what I can see now, the BSN's get just as disrespected and abused by MD's as the ADN's and LPN's do for that matter.
I have yet to see one instance when BSN on a nametag commanded respect for and shielded disrespect and abuse from an MD, patient, or their family member.
And getting rid of ADN's, diploma RN's, and LPN's altogether? Talk about your perfect example of throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
Knowledge is power and degrees can only help better oneself but the mandatory BSN requirement is by far the small bandaid on the gaping wound of nursing's problems.
Shame on New York.

SO WELL PUT! MY POINT EXACTLY.

Daytonite, BSN, RN · Jun 5, 2005

First, I am almost finished with my BSN and will agree that there is no major incentive offered by my employer. That is sad, but true. Second, I am really going to disagree that BSN programs are fluff and they add a few courses on research here and management there. Simply not true. My BSN courses have been comprehensive and I have learned a great deal.

Well, I didn't want to step on toes, but as an AA nurse who went on to get a BSN I can say that there is a difference between the two. You may not get a major incentive from your employer for having the BSN, but I believe that doors of opportunity will open to you. They did for me. Within a few months of getting my BSN I was offered a position as a supervisor. With subsequent jobs I was moved into supervision or management positions if I wanted them quite quickly.

There is a difference is the training a person receives at a baccalaureate level of college. BSNs stay with me on this. How many term papers did you have to write for your upper division nursing classes? We had to write one for every class, footnoted and referenced! I never had to do one term paper in my AA program or any kind of research. Almost every BSN I've talked to has commented about all the writing that had to be done. And, it seems that process recordings are a big part of most BSN programs too. For my program, we had to do a couple of them for each clinical class. How many people have had to turn in comprehensive care plans that were 40 pages long and loaded with references to nursing texts. We were never given a model of nursing to follow for my AA program, but we sure were for my BSN program (had a whole course on it) and every care plan had to reflect that nursing model or your grade suffered. My professors in my BSN program constantly challenged us to self-analyze our actions and re-evaluate what we were doing with patients whether it was patient teaching or patient care. It was a very indepth and concentrated type of learning, not just memorizing facts and spitting them back out on a test. We were taught to really think problems through and to seek out solutions by using references.

caroladybelle, BSN, RN · Jun 5, 2005

That was perhaps the experience of your AA program. My AS program however, required written case studies for all 5 terms, requiring multiple references, footnotes, and ran between 35-100 pages typewritten. In addition, copious reports were required in prereqs as well as additional term papers. We were also graded down for spelling/grammar/punctuation errors. (1/2 a letter grade for each and every error)

We were also given a model of nursing.

The big difference with the local BSN program, was the 9 hours of religion/philosophy class as opposed to our 3 hours of philosophy/ethics class, a humanities course, two general history classes, a extra math and an extra english course (both of which can be satisfied by taking classes lower ranked than the Nursing AS required english/math courses.

That and the tuition was four times more expensive per course hour at the BSN school

Coolgramma · Jun 5, 2005

This is a relevent topic for nurses at all educational levels. I think the degree "requirements" being proposed by some legislators have more to do with image (and who is backing them? Hospitals of course) than the skill level of the trade. ADN programs and BSN programs are virtually identical in their core nursing education. The BSN programs vary a little, but most have an additional course in statistics, maybe a nutrition course, a harder chemistry, and maybe two additional "nursing theory" courses. A couple of extra "embelishments" but the "meat and potatos" of how to become a rookie nurse are identical. The MSN programs add more theory courses and a little bit of "management". What's the reward for that extra BSN? Maybe a buck more an hour, for the MSN maybe another buck an hour. That's how much hospitals think of the extra education. The proof is in the pay, and the hospital chains don't care enough to pay. Of course they can use your education to promote themselves - use it as a marketing tool, but in their eyes, and most MD's eyes, and the public's eye, a nurse is a nurse is a nurse - nobody cares (except the nurses who have worked so hard) what kind of "alphabet" you have behind your name - BSN, MSN, CCRN, blah, blah, blah. They want you to be educated, of course, so they can use that to their advantage, but are not willing to reward you in a significant way. The issue of education is becoming worse in my opinion. There are to many nursing programs, and with the advent of online degrees, the educational problem is becoming even worse . What is happening is that the "market" is being flooded with thousands of new, "more highly educated" (who have no work experience) nurses, and this will lead to lower pay and lower respect for new RN's regardless of degree. There are 125 medical schools in the US and they consistantly average about 16,500 graduates a year. When was the last time you heard of an MD shortage in the US? Never. They are selective, choose the best candidates, keep the quality high, and "turn out" a limited number of graduates a year. You don't see online MD programs springing up like weeds. Thus, they can command high salaries and professional respect and have the power to control their compensation. The AMA isn't crying about an MD shortage, why should they? All that would do is flood the market with new MDs and they would earn less. The "nursing shortage" is a ploy to attract new people to the profession and lower pay scales. Hospitals don't care about your level of education (except to use it as a marketing tool), they want a cheaper employee. If nurses want their future BSN or MSN to have any status, they need to have more political clout and get laws passed that are favorable to nurses - and not just staffing ratios- but greater autonomy in patient care and in what "skills" and procedures they are allowed to perform, as well as how future nurses will be educated and how many will be graduated each year. We need to focus more on the politics of our profession if we want it to be respected and financially rewarding. Having a "caring nirturing attitude" and being "a well rounded people person" are not enough, neither is having a bunch of abbreviations behind your name that only you and your colleagues value.

I am posting for the first time and HAD to respond to the messages about the value of "letters" after our RN designation. I have been around a LONG time (my grandchildren think I'm as old as dirt!). I have to begin by saying that I LOVE the choice I made when , at the age of 7, I decided that Nursing was what I wanted to do for the rest of my life. I have "lots of letters", and am in the procss of getting a few more.... Let me explain. I am originally from a Diploma program...GREAT education and super experience, however, not acceptable to colleges for the BSN degree, which, at least in NY was being promoted as the requirement for RN's as long ago as the early 1960's!!! I challenged as many courses as I could, got an ADN, then a BS in Health Education, and an M.Ed. in Curriculum Design and Development. Inbetween I became a Certificate prepared Nurse Practitioner in Adult and Adolescent Medicine, Nationally Certified through ANCC, (there were NO Master's programs for NP's yet), and Challenged the National Certification for Physician Assistants, so I am also a PA. I've worked in every area of Nursing except Psych (even though 15 years as Director of College Health Centers exposed my to LOTS of Psych issues). While living in Vermont, I taught in college classrooms, Nursing Schools in the BSN, MSN, and Post-Master's programs, as well as guest lecturer in Med School classes. Now I am back in NY and MUST return to school for a MSN (in ANYTHING) because NYS Dept. of Ed. says I'm not qualified to teach in a college level Nursing program without it...so that's what I am doing. No wonder we are not valued OR respected by other professions when our own professional organizations don't support us or fight for us in the legislative arena. MORE titles DO NOT a profession worthy of respect make!!! NURSES "EAT" THEIR YOUNG!!! Getting nurses to stick together is the hardest job of all. As a founding member of the NYS NP association, struggling to increase membership, I know that we don't belong to the organiztions that could change our status AND as a group let them know what we need and want, so a few make the choices for the many. Legislators see that we don't support our profession, and so why should they??? I am currently teaching nursing, pending my MSN, and my class consists of "mature" adults. Every class I tell them that you CAN make a difference!!! One person can! Look at Mother Teresa! And that this profession will be the hardest job they'll ever love. That will be my legacy to this profession, helping new nurses learn to value and love themselves and what they do. Bt the way, there's NO shame in wanting to make a good salary...valuing yourself and your skills is important. If you don't value who and what you are and can contribute, no one else will either.

Thank you for "listening" to 30+ years of struggle and frustration...I admire all of you who are out there fighting to make the difference and for valuing your professional choice...coolgramma