Interesting!!

Published

On a personal note though I do support PAs getting a doctorate if they want to. This article was interesting to read and it will be even more interesting to see where things evolve to in the future.

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Specializes in Outpatient Psychiatry.

PAs have already been getting doctorates and taking part in true residency programs. This DMS isn't going to sever the physician cord and put more money in their pocket.

The DNP will not increase NPs independence or give them any boost in clinical skill. It's an apples to cabbage comparison.

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Oh good. I have been waiting for this like a cat in the bush.

first off, here is my other post on this that I commented to.

https://allnurses.com/doctor-nursing-practice/clarification-on-the-657535.html

Second, I attended LMU for my BSN and MSN. It is an OK school for nursing. We were not a fluff NP program like many are. Only had to write three papers the whole time. Usually were in the suture lab, doing full physicals and each other, or taking 100 question pharm tests, and we took some classes with the CRNA group. You know, the worthwhile stuff. So it was not a total cake walk.

BUT as a whole, the school blows (medical school is OK also I suppose). Recently they opened a law school in TN that they had to fight for a year or two to get it accredited. It was that awful. Who needs more lawyers anyway? nobody. Plus it was 1k per semester hour. LolRip

Back on topic. I will post what LMU put, and comment on each

U.S. physician residencies are capped by federal dollars. Every practicing physician must complete a residency therefore these caps limit the impact medical schools can have on the impending provider shortage. The greatest users of health care resources, including the elderly and chronically ill, are expected to increase by 46% over the next 10 years, and the Affordable Care Act is projected to add between 26 and 32 million new patients to the health care system. As a result, despite the aggressive approach and success of medical colleges and schools to increase total enrollments by 30% from 2003 to 2020, the ratio of patient demand to physician supply continues to grow. (AAMC.org)

Oh ok, so you start with saying that you want to save the government money. CAPPED BY FEDERAL DOLLARS. So, obviously with the outrageous cost of school nowadays, the solution is to add another FIFTY FOUR THOUSAND DOLLARS into your pocket from the students wallet. OK MAKES SENSE. Followed by the usually blah blah blah people are getting old post.

In November of 2015, the Association of American Medical Colleges (AAMC) reported that the demand for physicians continues to grow faster than the supply, with a projected shortfall between 46,100 and 90,400 physicians by 2025.” It further highlights that the projected shortfalls in primary care will range between 12,500 and 31,100 physicians by 2025.” The lower ranges of the projected shortfalls reflects the rapid growth in supply” of physician assistants, nurse practitioners and nurse anesthetists.

OK, so essentially they are hinting at wanting to meet the need caused by PHYSICIAN SHORTAGE. You know where this is heading...

Physician assistants are trained in a medical model developed by physicians. The curriculum mimics the physician training model, but is slightly shorter in duration, and includes one year of clinical training instead of two. Practicing physician assistants are licensed by the state medical boards, and practice medicine with the supervision of a physician.

We know this.

In the April 2015 edition of the AAMC Reporter, the AAMC Chief Health Care Officer noted that the doctor shortage will not be solved by any one approach, but rather will require a number of strategies. Medical schools and teaching hospitals must do their part in care, delivery and medical education.”

More fluff.

In 2009, the physician assistant (PA) profession held the PA Clinical Doctoral Summit to investigate the need for a doctoral degree for PAs. Composed of 50 professionals from the health care community representing multiple health care professions, the summit prescribed some foundations for what a doctoral program should look like. In the final report of the summit, recommendations were made for colleges and universities to explore the development of a model for advanced clinical training for physician assistants, and recommended a doctorate of medical science degree.”

Only 50 people? What about their backgrounds? Probably all instructors at PA programs who want more salary.

Answering the challenge noted by the AAMC's Chief Health Care Officer and the 2009 PA Clinical Doctoral Summit recommendations, Lincoln Memorial University is doing its part to address the continued primary care provider shortage by taking an already well-trained physician assistant medical provider and enhancing his or her skills, education and training to help supply the demand for highly qualified doctorally prepared health care providers.

Oh your solving a problem huh? They use the BROAD term doctorally prepared healthcare provider.” Doing its part” Like your helping somebody by making another pointless degree that does NOT provide Pas with independent practice.

As home to one of the largest PA programs in the country, and Tennessee's largest medical school by enrollment, LMU has a special opportunity to meet the need for advanced medical education in Appalachia and beyond,” LMU President B. James Dawson said.

Here the broad term advanced medical education” is used. Just because it is advanced” does not make it good….. or efficient.

CHARTING THE COURSE

The LMU Doctor of Medical Science program is comprised of 50 credits. Eligible candidates must have PA master's level training and a minimum of three years of clinical experience. The first year curriculum includes online didactics delivered by clinical and Ph.D. subspecialists from the LMU-DeBusk College of Osteopathic Medicine, other teaching hospitals and the community. The second year is comprised of online didactics specific to a clinical specialty. Students in the clinical practicum will achieve defined clinical competencies over the course of the two-year program. There are three tracks to choose from: primary care, hospital medicine, and emergency medicine. In lieu of the clinical practicum, experienced PAs can choose an academic track to be delivered by the LMU Carter and Moyers School of Education's Doctor of Education program for the purposes of enhancing medical education. Students will be able to participate in the program while continuing with full-time clinical practice as a PA.

Here is where we get to the juicy stuff. Essentially, the program is made to provide a PA with education toward a specific specialty (residency??). OK, so they throw in a few MD/PDH to teach and what not. I guess you get to choose ER, hospital medicine, or primary care…. Or teaching.

Personally I have done ER and hospital medicine, the best learning experience is actually doing it and getting paid. I would not dish out 50K to go back and work my hospital job again. It paid around 170k a year and THAT wasn't enough to deal with what I dealt with. So this is a losing battle already. Also, they already have PA er residencies, and hospital medicine, and primary care residencies. So why would you pay 50k to do something when you could get paid to do it?????? I guess you get to work during this DMS program, but that is not well hashed out. on hourly requirements. To sum it up, instead of getting paid, YOU pay, to work, or study, or whatever…..

The University has announced that Paul Serrell, M.D., a board-certified nephrologist and associate clinical professor of medicine at the University of Tennessee, will work with the program and serve as associate dean. A permanent dean will be announced later in the year.

I am sure the ad for this job went like looking for board certified DR. X to make an extra 100k a year and make power points for Pas and post them on blackboard.”

The program's curriculum is designed to fill the educational gaps between the foundational physician and physician assistant curricula,” Serrell said. It will incorporate current clinical trends and evidence-based medicine modeled after physician graduate medical education.”

HERE IT IS. This is where they say they want to BRIDGE THE GAP, between PA and physician. THEY FINALLY SAID IT after presenting this weak case to try to showcase this programs validity. Sort of takes the assistant out of physician assistant eh? Also, is this not what CME is for???? To keep up with medical trends???

LOOKING TO THE FUTURE

Looking into the future of health care, LMU seeks to impact the provider shortage by providing advanced training for PAs. Currently, LMU has authorization to offer the Doctor of Medical Science program to students residing in 39 states.

This DMS program is truly groundbreaking,” Autry O.V. Pete” DeBusk, chairman of the LMU Board of Trustees, said. Our program addresses both the clinical shortage of physicians and the shortage of professors in the medical field. There is not a university out there offering this for physician assistants.”

Of course they end claiming why x school is superior to all the others and will be the next Harvard Medical School.'

to sum it up, the director the LMU's pa program also spoke to medical students last year, for an hour, explicitly stating they do not want to replace physicians, and they are happy with being master prepared assistants. It is questionable whether or not he had much say in this degree, but you know as the director, I see some cognitive dissonance going on.

TOO LONG DID NOT READ VERSION

Pay 54000 to read powerpoints

No independent practice

Lose working time

Make schools wallet fatter

More student loans

Get to be a DMS

Would you like a glass? No thanks, I'll pass

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I'm just not understanding how this program adds value to a PA's career. PAs already have all the training that they need because their clinical rotations are very similar to that of the physicians, and they get one-on-one expert-level training from the physician who they are working with in whatever specialty they choose. The important difference here is that they get this one-on-one expert training for free while earning a solid paycheck every week, as opposed to being broke and dependent on student loans to the tune of many tens of thousands of dollars if they pursue this program. And, if they pursue this program they will still need to be tethered to a physician in order to practice so what is the point of it, really? It appears that what they would gain most of all is the 'doctor' title. Might be worth it to some, but I wouldn't do it. If I was a PA and I wanted to do a doctoral degree I would look at other options.

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Specializes in Outpatient Psychiatry.
Oh good. I have been waiting for this like a cat in the bush.

first off, here is my other post on this that I commented to.

https://allnurses.com/doctor-nursing-practice/clarification-on-the-657535.html

Second, I attended LMU for my BSN and MSN. It is an OK school for nursing. We were not a fluff NP program like many are. Only had to write three papers the whole time. Usually were in the suture lab, doing full physicals and each other, or taking 100 question pharm tests, and we took some classes with the CRNA group. You know, the worthwhile stuff. So it was not a total cake walk.

BUT as a whole, the school blows (medical school is OK also I suppose). Recently they opened a law school in TN that they had to fight for a year or two to get it accredited. It was that awful. Who needs more lawyers anyway? nobody. Plus it was 1k per semester hour. LolRip

Back on topic. I will post what LMU put, and comment on each

U.S. physician residencies are capped by federal dollars. Every practicing physician must complete a residency therefore these caps limit the impact medical schools can have on the impending provider shortage. The greatest users of health care resources, including the elderly and chronically ill, are expected to increase by 46% over the next 10 years, and the Affordable Care Act is projected to add between 26 and 32 million new patients to the health care system. As a result, despite the aggressive approach and success of medical colleges and schools to increase total enrollments by 30% from 2003 to 2020, the ratio of patient demand to physician supply continues to grow. (AAMC.org)

Oh ok, so you start with saying that you want to save the government money. CAPPED BY FEDERAL DOLLARS. So, obviously with the outrageous cost of school nowadays, the solution is to add another FIFTY FOUR THOUSAND DOLLARS into your pocket from the students wallet. OK MAKES SENSE. Followed by the usually blah blah blah people are getting old post.

In November of 2015, the Association of American Medical Colleges (AAMC) reported that the demand for physicians continues to grow faster than the supply, with a projected shortfall between 46,100 and 90,400 physicians by 2025.” It further highlights that the projected shortfalls in primary care will range between 12,500 and 31,100 physicians by 2025.” The lower ranges of the projected shortfalls reflects the rapid growth in supply” of physician assistants, nurse practitioners and nurse anesthetists.

OK, so essentially they are hinting at wanting to meet the need caused by PHYSICIAN SHORTAGE. You know where this is heading...

Physician assistants are trained in a medical model developed by physicians. The curriculum mimics the physician training model, but is slightly shorter in duration, and includes one year of clinical training instead of two. Practicing physician assistants are licensed by the state medical boards, and practice medicine with the supervision of a physician.

We know this.

In the April 2015 edition of the AAMC Reporter, the AAMC Chief Health Care Officer noted that the doctor shortage will not be solved by any one approach, but rather will require a number of strategies. Medical schools and teaching hospitals must do their part in care, delivery and medical education.”

More fluff.

In 2009, the physician assistant (PA) profession held the PA Clinical Doctoral Summit to investigate the need for a doctoral degree for PAs. Composed of 50 professionals from the health care community representing multiple health care professions, the summit prescribed some foundations for what a doctoral program should look like. In the final report of the summit, recommendations were made for colleges and universities to explore the development of a model for advanced clinical training for physician assistants, and recommended a doctorate of medical science degree.”

Only 50 people? What about their backgrounds? Probably all instructors at PA programs who want more salary.

Answering the challenge noted by the AAMC's Chief Health Care Officer and the 2009 PA Clinical Doctoral Summit recommendations, Lincoln Memorial University is doing its part to address the continued primary care provider shortage by taking an already well-trained physician assistant medical provider and enhancing his or her skills, education and training to help supply the demand for highly qualified doctorally prepared health care providers.

Oh your solving a problem huh? They use the BROAD term doctorally prepared healthcare provider.” Doing its part” Like your helping somebody by making another pointless degree that does NOT provide Pas with independent practice.

As home to one of the largest PA programs in the country, and Tennessee's largest medical school by enrollment, LMU has a special opportunity to meet the need for advanced medical education in Appalachia and beyond,” LMU President B. James Dawson said.

Here the broad term advanced medical education” is used. Just because it is advanced” does not make it good….. or efficient.

CHARTING THE COURSE

The LMU Doctor of Medical Science program is comprised of 50 credits. Eligible candidates must have PA master's level training and a minimum of three years of clinical experience. The first year curriculum includes online didactics delivered by clinical and Ph.D. subspecialists from the LMU-DeBusk College of Osteopathic Medicine, other teaching hospitals and the community. The second year is comprised of online didactics specific to a clinical specialty. Students in the clinical practicum will achieve defined clinical competencies over the course of the two-year program. There are three tracks to choose from: primary care, hospital medicine, and emergency medicine. In lieu of the clinical practicum, experienced PAs can choose an academic track to be delivered by the LMU Carter and Moyers School of Education's Doctor of Education program for the purposes of enhancing medical education. Students will be able to participate in the program while continuing with full-time clinical practice as a PA.

Here is where we get to the juicy stuff. Essentially, the program is made to provide a PA with education toward a specific specialty (residency??). OK, so they throw in a few MD/PDH to teach and what not. I guess you get to choose ER, hospital medicine, or primary care…. Or teaching.

Personally I have done ER and hospital medicine, the best learning experience is actually doing it and getting paid. I would not dish out 50K to go back and work my hospital job again. It paid around 170k a year and THAT wasn't enough to deal with what I dealt with. So this is a losing battle already. Also, they already have PA er residencies, and hospital medicine, and primary care residencies. So why would you pay 50k to do something when you could get paid to do it?????? I guess you get to work during this DMS program, but that is not well hashed out. on hourly requirements. To sum it up, instead of getting paid, YOU pay, to work, or study, or whatever…..

The University has announced that Paul Serrell, M.D., a board-certified nephrologist and associate clinical professor of medicine at the University of Tennessee, will work with the program and serve as associate dean. A permanent dean will be announced later in the year.

I am sure the ad for this job went like looking for board certified DR. X to make an extra 100k a year and make power points for Pas and post them on blackboard.”

The program's curriculum is designed to fill the educational gaps between the foundational physician and physician assistant curricula,” Serrell said. It will incorporate current clinical trends and evidence-based medicine modeled after physician graduate medical education.”

HERE IT IS. This is where they say they want to BRIDGE THE GAP, between PA and physician. THEY FINALLY SAID IT after presenting this weak case to try to showcase this programs validity. Sort of takes the assistant out of physician assistant eh? Also, is this not what CME is for???? To keep up with medical trends???

LOOKING TO THE FUTURE

Looking into the future of health care, LMU seeks to impact the provider shortage by providing advanced training for PAs. Currently, LMU has authorization to offer the Doctor of Medical Science program to students residing in 39 states.

This DMS program is truly groundbreaking,” Autry O.V. Pete” DeBusk, chairman of the LMU Board of Trustees, said. Our program addresses both the clinical shortage of physicians and the shortage of professors in the medical field. There is not a university out there offering this for physician assistants.”

Of course they end claiming why x school is superior to all the others and will be the next Harvard Medical School.'

to sum it up, the director the LMU's pa program also spoke to medical students last year, for an hour, explicitly stating they do not want to replace physicians, and they are happy with being master prepared assistants. It is questionable whether or not he had much say in this degree, but you know as the director, I see some cognitive dissonance going on.

TOO LONG DID NOT READ VERSION

Pay 54000 to read powerpoints

No independent practice

Lose working time

Make schools wallet fatter

More student loans

Get to be a DMS

Would you like a glass? No thanks, I'll pass

Thank you for taking the time to carefully write out your thoughts!!!!!!! I share your perspective.

If this did indeed bridge the gap and make a physician assistant a physician then it might be OK. BUT it's really just a pile of crap to make for pointed discussions and institutional revenue.

How about a med school that's three years, 50% of the cost, and simpler to get into. I don't mean dumbed down, but more efficient. For example, pharmacy school requires many if not all the same prereqs as med school, but often after taking those and earning a mere 60 semester hours they can matriculate to pharm school. Why not make med school the same in more instances? I've seen a paper that even questioned the necessity of the prerequisite coursework so that's yet another area to boost efficiency and reduce cost.

Until there's a doctoral program that will increase my scope, autonomy, or billable reimbursement then I don't want it.

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I wouldn't want anyone that couldn't get an 'A' in embryology replacing my hip.

In most med schools, they don't grant grades F-A the classes are P or F

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Specializes in Tele, Cardiac Post Op, ER.

just out of curiosity, what do you need in order to pass a class in med school... I'm sure its needed toward passing boards but I'm interested.

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Psychguy I really respect your knowledge and comments here on allnurses, but in all do respect I believe off label was referencing capability. Because I wouldn't want anyone who couldn't get an A to cute me open, but I do agree I don't think embryology is much of a perquisite to orthopedics :)

Yes it is.... can't be a doctor without it:sneaky:

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In most med schools, they don't grant grades F-A the classes are P or F

Not most and not all four years.

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There is already a PA to DO bridge, personally I think it's too conservative though. Make the bridge 2 years, 3 years isn't worth it IMO unless they shorten residency.

Accelerated Physician Assistant Pathway - LECOM Education System

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@ twozer

Chiropractors, dentists and optometrists are "called doctor" too. What do you mean? There are individuals of singular intellect and ability that are doctors. I want one of those for my surgeon. There are lots and lots of them because they gravitate to what most people find too difficult and challenging, but paradoxically, some minimize this as simple and insignificant, i.e. "bone carpenter".

It's interesting to me how easy it is for some to minimize something about which they have no meaningful knowledge or experience with such authority.

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Specializes in Urology.
@ twozer

Chiropractors, dentists and optometrists are "called doctor" too. What do you mean? There are individuals of singular intellect and ability that are doctors. I want one of those for my surgeon. There are lots and lots of them because they gravitate to what most people find too difficult and challenging, but paradoxically, some minimize this as simple and insignificant, i.e. "bone carpenter".

It's interesting to me how easy it is for some to minimize something about which they have no meaningful knowledge or experience with such authority.

I wouldnt say people dont gravitate because it's too hard. A lot of choice is based off of lifestyle. Why do you think everyone gravitates towards dermatology or radiology? Or heck, why every novice nurse wants to be a CRNA? I mean being a CRNA is difficult but it doesnt stop the masses from wanting to do it. There is no shortage on people applying for CRNA school and its easily the hardest version of nursing school there is.

I would also want the best surgeon for myself (who wouldnt!) but really it doesnt matter what they studied in med school. I've asked countless doc's through the years and have got the same answer from all of them. Residency makes you. Med school was there and it does provide a lot of framework but for a lot of it is like me taking the fluff stuff. Sure its nice to know all of that but it really doesnt play a big role in what I do everyday (or at all).

On a final note. Do we call DNP's doctors?!

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