I am a first term LPN student. My trouble is one older Professor (she's a retired R.N.) who has to pet, squeeze, touch, pat, rub and huddle during any conversation. I'm afraid of retaliation (she's already written me up over an honest mistake) and losing my place in program if I speak up and say stop. I don't want to be whiny--but it's distracting--she's smothering--and it makes me really uncomfortable. I understand there is a therapeutic factor to touch--but I don't need to be groped while learning. It's a small school in a small town.
She also wrote me up for being upset one day after clinicals. I was in the parking lot, leaving after we finished. I had held it together all day. She had dropped this bombshell about changed assignments that morning. I was almost at my car. She called after me--and asked two or three times how i was--assured me I could talk to her--and then took that trusted communication and turned it into a write up of me being unprofessional.
I know this program will weed out people who they don't like--no matter how good your grades are or how hard you work. I've known people who were exited because a professor did not like them. This means way too much to me. I really don't want to lose my place. I'm pretty freaked out right now. I thought I was doing well.
I've never heard of any instructor doing this to their students (pre-req or nursing) school.
I'm not a touchy-feely person either. Well, only with certain people and if I haven't seen them for a while.
In your case, it sounds like she's not harrassing you at all. But, as a rule, you really should limit what you say to an instructor. Especially the ones that have to evaluate you. I don't understand why she would write you up though. That was uncalled for, not to mention sneaky.
I had a micro. instructor that I was friendly to. She liked talking about herself, she was friendly to everyone. So, when we talked about some personal stuff -- I knew it wasn't just me, who knew her info. So, it wasn't a big deal. Also, I don't really like talking about other peoples' business. Half the time, I forget what we talked about within a week! Lol, anyway. . . I liked her, she was good people. In a few occasions, she had to get closer to me, I never thought anything of it.
If she was doing to me what you had described, well, I can only wish!
To OP: If this was a male instructor, would you classify it as a harrassment? Or would you still be keeping your reservations about the whole thing? It would be different, won't it?
Specializes in Peds/outpatient FP,derm,allergy/private duty.
I'm going to go against the grain and tell you that maybe you should just chill out a bit. Think about it, you are going to be in a job that will have you touching other people in ways and parts that most people just don't care to think about. Touching other people and having them touch you back is part of the equation. Of course I'm not talking about somebody else groping you, but putting a hand on your arm or shoulder is a way of showing some care and concern and a way of connecting from one person to another, regardless of either persons sex.
Lots of people feel icky when they are are touched by somebody they don't know. I would submit that working as a nurse is going to put you into into that "icky spot" every day and you will either get over it or you wont. As for your instructor, as a retired RN, she has had her hands on more peoples bodies than you or I could ever imagine and she probably doesn't even think about it. And she probably does treat it as a therapeutic touch so consider her motivation as well. And honestly, are you sure that she didn't have some cause to be critical of your performance rather than just to retaliate for your comments? How long has she been doing this that she would let a student ruffle her in that way? I see so many rants here about this instructor has it in for me and that instructor hates guys and so much other stuff I just have to wonder how everybody survives all the drama.
What you're doing with this advice is essentially removing the framework of context and role assignment as it applies to nudity, modesty, intimacy, and personal boundaries. A nurse has exactly NO more obligation to be touched because he or she touches others in the course of her work as a professional than anyone else. It's obvious that you aren't a working nurse, or I highly doubt you would have written those things. If I sound angry, it's only after years in this field having to listen to justifications for inappropriate behavior and a marked tendency to blame the victim.
The exact same physical motion is defined by it's context, and when anyone attempts to redefine it to manipulate and discount the objections of another as no big deal great harm can result from it. As nurses we have to be more vigilant, not less, precisely because we are touching people in the course of our work.
Therapeutic Touch is a recognized treatment modality with clear parameters.
It isn't loosely defined as a hug, a stroke, or anything else when the two people involved are not in a nurse-patient relationship. Frankly, I find the OP's instructor justifying the behavior by calling it "therapeutic touch" disturbing. And how can any touch be called therapeutic if it is unwelcome in the first place?
I agree that the "my instructor hates me" posts can get annoying, but I actually think elle27 is way more chill than she could be considering her particular circumstances.
put up with it if it is really your goal to complete this program. It sounds like objective data and measurable progress isn't the primary criteria for dismissal from this group and the opportunities in the area may be limited. If this is the case- you will have a lot more disturbing interactions with poo, spit, blood, and goo throughout your nursing career. Unless she is getting fresh- live with it and move on. I know this is the "chicken answer" but what would you rather have- a place in the program and unwanted "theraputic" touch, or your self awareness boundries intact and your head held high as you flip burgers at Wendy's? Sometimes what is real is more important than what is right.
lol, yea... in one of my clinicals, I remember an instructor saying --- WE HAVE TO reach out and TOUCH the next person to us (this was around 7AMish) -->> obviously, NO ONE wanted to touch anybody!! She said that, if we can't touch anyone, then we ARE in the WRONG profession.
Honestly, I was half awake when that was going on, I didn't really feel like touching anyone -- that early in the morning! And the room was nice, cool, and comfy... it felt like a bed, but sitting down though. Anyway, all of us touched each other for about 5 to 10 seconds (on the arm), and the instructor said what she said (above). Oh, we had to touch each other longer... lol.
Thinking back, IF I was just fully awake -- I woulda bursted out laughing! All of us had personal space issues (too early in the morning, it seemed).
Specializes in Peds/outpatient FP,derm,allergy/private duty.
QUOTE=vegas2009;4374908]lol, yea... in one of my clinicals, I remember an instructor saying --- WE HAVE TO reach out and TOUCH the next person to us (this was around 7AMish) -->> obviously, NO ONE wanted to touch anybody!! She said that, if we can't touch anyone, then we ARE in the WRONG profession.
Give me a break! Did they also require you to do the "trust" exercise, where you put on a blindfold and fall backwards and let your classmates catch you? Nursing school isn't the Esalen Institute-- though I suspect many instructors are of an age that they may have been steeped in all that new age-y stuff.
To OP-if I were you, I'd wait until the instructor no longer evaluated you and mention it to somebody who cares. If the program director doesn't, go above her head. If you're really paranoid, wait until you graduate. I think that people would be more likely to tell you to report this if it were a creepy, sweaty male instructor as opposed to a grandma-like retired peds nurse. Best of luck :)
As an instructor, I would never initiate anything more personal than a handshake, due to the possibility of making someone uncomfortable. Anything else must be initiated by the student and in public. For example, I had a student who found out during clinical that a relative died unexpectedly. That student, of course, was visible upset and just sort of clung to me to cry. Since the student initiated the contact, I found it appropriate and wanted to comfort the student.
Your instructor is very different. Although the intentions are likely good, it is completely out of line to pat someone's butt. The instructor should realize that we differ personally and culturally in how much personal space and contact we find acceptable. Your wishes should have been respected. I would do as advised and fill out your evaluation factually. This could easily lead to a lawsuit if this continued. Just imagine if this instructor did this to a male student, or a male instructor did this to a female student and the student were to pursue litigation.
I am sorry. I did say something very polite to her about touch. I said, "please, I'd rather not be touched or hugged. I don't feel comfortable." That got me a mini-lecture on therapeutic touch.
I was written up for doing something I didn't know I shouldn't do; a finger stick. I will accept that. i haven't been checked off to do finger sticks. i didn't know we were checked off for finger sticks. the writing up for my "inappropriate" behavior was all about the conversation she initiated in a parking lot off site from clinical--and i wasn't in scrubs and had no identification about me that said i was a nursing student: she and i were alone.
this is six weeks of buildup; i think the write up is retaliation for asking not to be touched.
c'est la guerre. if she has me exited from the program--i will find another.
pressing assault or battery charges would just make a mess of things--but if she makes a mess for me, i will make a mess for her. maybe she'll learn something about boundaries and integrity.
thank you all, again.
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I am sorry to hear that you are having that problem. God! - can't people just behave in a sane manner??
I agree with your feelings about your instructor. I would feel the same way. I also would want to talk to the director of the Nursing Program, but it could be a good thing for you , or a bad thing for you. That's the unfortunate part.
Oh wow--okay--thank you all. I am very chill about this. My previous life was as a hairstylist. My clients are actually the ones behind me taking the plunge to go to nursing school. I have played devil's advocate in my head with this. I have read all of your responses. I decided to take my problem to the college ombudsman. We have a fact-finding hearing on Friday.
I cannot say how many times I have let inappropriate remarks, actions, touch or advances slide. I have not ever stood up about it. I have come to the realization that part of being a nurse is advocating for people; for patients or clients--but for people who need it. I don't see how I will make a very good advocate for others if I won't advocate for myself.
Whatever happens from here, happens. Thank you all--again--and further--for all of your points, for your help; for being there. I will post the outcome of this right here.
Then maybe the drama can go back to existing in the theatre department.
Oh wow--okay--thank you all. I am very chill about this. My previous life was as a hairstylist. My clients are actually the ones behind me taking the plunge to go to nursing school. I have played devil's advocate in my head with this. I have read all of your responses. I decided to take my problem to the college ombudsman. We have a fact-finding hearing on Friday.
I cannot say how many times I have let inappropriate remarks, actions, touch or advances slide. I have not ever stood up about it. I have come to the realization that part of being a nurse is advocating for people; for patients or clients--but for people who need it. I don't see how I will make a very good advocate for others if I won't advocate for myself.
Whatever happens from here, happens. Thank you all--again--and further--for all of your points, for your help; for being there. I will post the outcome of this right here.
Then maybe the drama can go back to existing in the theatre department.
I would not recommend this course of action, but I wish you a good outcome.
She is a touchy-feely person. She will pat people on the bottom--or on the head--like we are small children. She did work peds for a long time--before she retired and began teaching. I think that is where the behavior comes from. She comes across as this nice older lady. Most people adore her.
There are a few of us that she seems particularly drawn to. We are all about the same height and build. I don't know if we remind her of a relative or of herself at our age.
I wasn't actually crying--I was just walking fast--trying to get home so I could get started on the work and eat lunch (six hours of clinical with no break!). I was really proud of myself for not crying, actually. Being sandbagged with 6 hours of homework right before a 3 hour A&P exam should be enough to make anybody cry.
I don't think she is being sexual. I feel groped. The way she hangs on and pats remind me of high school boyfriends. It's just weird and disturbing.
I think you are right about riding it out. I feel validated reading that what I've gone through is unfair and inappropriate. A little reassurance and validation go a very long way for me. Thank you very much for the response--seriously!
Woe to the woman who touches my rear end. You are legally and ethically within your rights to tell her hands off and that you don't feel her conduct toward you is appropriate.
I would not recommend this course of action, but I wish you a good outcome.
I salute the OP for doing it.
Letting this instructor continue her harassment - because that's what it is, harassment, pure and simple - feeds the problem. These people in her class are ADULTS, not her children (although if my mom ever patted me on the behind I think I'd have her committed), and deserve to be treated as such.
Turning over and letting the behavior continue doesn't make it stop. These aren't puppies - they're ADULTS.
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vegas2009
408 Posts
I've never heard of any instructor doing this to their students (pre-req or nursing) school.
I'm not a touchy-feely person either. Well, only with certain people and if I haven't seen them for a while.
In your case, it sounds like she's not harrassing you at all. But, as a rule, you really should limit what you say to an instructor. Especially the ones that have to evaluate you. I don't understand why she would write you up though. That was uncalled for, not to mention sneaky.
I had a micro. instructor that I was friendly to. She liked talking about herself, she was friendly to everyone. So, when we talked about some personal stuff -- I knew it wasn't just me, who knew her info. So, it wasn't a big deal. Also, I don't really like talking about other peoples' business. Half the time, I forget what we talked about within a week! Lol, anyway. . . I liked her, she was good people. In a few occasions, she had to get closer to me, I never thought anything of it.
If she was doing to me what you had described, well, I can only wish!
To OP: If this was a male instructor, would you classify it as a harrassment? Or would you still be keeping your reservations about the whole thing? It would be different, won't it?