If the US started a system like the NHS in the UK should nurses expect a cut in pay

OUxPhys, BSN, RN · May 3, 2020

6 hours ago, Numenor said:
Truth hurts, there is a reason why actual "professional" careers don't involve unions. Nursing loves to tote this line between white collar and blue collar. Hmm wonder why. Unions breed incompetence and stagnation for the hope they will bail you out if something happens. I have seen multiple instances where after paying for dues (in the thousands over years), they were nowhere to be found when it mattered. Buy your own malpractice insurance and call it good. Hospitals aren't keen on firing nurses when the average cost to hire and train a nurse is 75K. I have seen a handful over years and years of practice and they were usually for gross incompetence or narcotic diversion.
Unions had their purpose decades ago, now with nursing jobs so plentiful most RNs have the pick of the litter and hospitals that force ICU RNs to have 4 patients simply don't exist. Supply and demand. Sorry I want to rewarded for my hard work and not be subservient to an archaic pay scale based on tenure.

Jobs may be plentiful in some areas but not in all. Do some of these jobs pay well? Are benefits good or mediocre? As for getting rewarded for hard work I still get bonuses that my manager nominates me for. If you do an excellent job your manager can push to have you jump a step when it comes time for your review. As for hospitals not keen on firing nurses that isn't entirely true. There was an instance at my old hospital where there was a nurse who would abuse the call off system (point based) and was constantly late. They had just enough to fire her but then she left for another hospital. I live in an at-will state and it isn't as easy as people think to fire someone. Hospitals aren't keen on firing because if it isn't a legit reason then the person fired will hit back with a wrongful termination lawsuit.

It's funny you mention hospitals aren't keen on firing nurses because it costs so much to train. So treating your employees like garbage and causing them to leave elsewhere and then have to hire and train their replacement is a more financial savy move? Please. My old employer was like this. They treated you like a number, so people leave after they get their experience and the name on their resume. It's no surprise they have radio ads announcing hiring fairs every 6 months.

As I said before it's unfortunate about the unions protecting the lazy workers. That's the one thing I hate, but, I like the protection of not being fired, punished, or written up for something frivolous.

kbrn2002, ADN, RN · May 3, 2020

14 hours ago, DesiDani said:
Financial hardship is not solely based on a healthcare bill. There many who don't have to worry about a doctor's bill, but still have to worry about being able to afford to live day by day.

Absolutely. My issue is how many of those people already barely making ends meet would be financially ruined by an unexpected medical bill? Even if they have health insurance it's likely a low premium/high deductible policy so even meeting the deductible would be impossible.

Guest1144461 · May 3, 2020

6 hours ago, OUxPhys said:
Jobs may be plentiful in some areas but not in all. Do some of these jobs pay well? Are benefits good or mediocre? As for getting rewarded for hard work I still get bonuses that my manager nominates me for. If you do an excellent job your manager can push to have you jump a step when it comes time for your review. As for hospitals not keen on firing nurses that isn't entirely true. There was an instance at my old hospital where there was a nurse who would abuse the call off system (point based) and was constantly late. They had just enough to fire her but then she left for another hospital. I live in an at-will state and it isn't as easy as people think to fire someone. Hospitals aren't keen on firing because if it isn't a legit reason then the person fired will hit back with a wrongful termination lawsuit.
It's funny you mention hospitals aren't keen on firing nurses because it costs so much to train. So treating your employees like garbage and causing them to leave elsewhere and then have to hire and train their replacement is a more financial savy move? Please. My old employer was like this. They treated you like a number, so people leave after they get their experience and the name on their resume. It's no surprise they have radio ads announcing hiring fairs every 6 months.
As I said before it's unfortunate about the unions protecting the lazy workers. That's the one thing I hate, but, I like the protection of not being fired, punished, or written up for something frivolous.

Jobs are plentiful everywhere and salaries rarely vary more than couple dollars. Literally find me a hospital that isn't hiring nurses with 1-2+ years experience. Your situation is unique, what you are describing directly violates union contracts at 99% of places. There are no bonuses and there are no performance based step increases. You are speaking from the VA perspective which is not real life. I would know, I spent 10 years as a govt/military nurse. The govt/VA are one of the cushiest positions one could get.

Most hospitals do not treat nurses like garbage and they are all too well aware what the other hospitals are paying which is why you aren't going to see massive pay gaps between union and non union hospitals. They aren't foolish. Bonus, you save a few thousand a year by not being in a union by avoiding these competitors.

Unions are archaic in the realm of nursing nowadays and hold the profession back from actually being a profession. But hey if you enjoy 2K a year being sapped up by union that generally does nothing except for the standard1-2% increases every year that the hospital would do for COL anyways, that's on you.

The cringiest thing about nursing unions is that claim to be "for the patients" but in all reality are self-serving to utmost degree. Pontification is almost a virtue.

Also, unions don't prevent hospitals writing you up for being late, not getting modules done etc. They have no power over something like that because most unions also that dictate that RNs have to abide by hospital bylaws, policies and procedures which includes timeliness and required education. This isn't frivilous.

OUxPhys, BSN, RN · May 3, 2020

16 minutes ago, Numenor said:
Jobs are plentiful everywhere and salaries rarely vary more than couple dollars. Literally find me a hospital that isn't hiring nurses with 1-2+ years experience. Your situation is unique, what you are describing directly violates union contracts at 99% of places. There are no bonuses and there are no performance based step increases. You are speaking from the VA perspective which is not real life. I would know, I spent 10 years as a govt/military nurse. The govt/VA are one of the cushiest positions one could get.
Most hospitals do not treat nurses like garbage and they are all too well aware what the other hospitals are paying which is why you aren't going to see massive pay gaps between union and non union hospitals. They aren't foolish. Bonus, you save a few thousand a year by not being in a union by avoiding these competitors.
Unions are archaic in the realm of nursing nowadays and hold the profession back from actually being a profession. But hey if you enjoy 2K a year being sapped up by union that generally does nothing except for the standard1-2% increases every year that the hospital would do for COL anyways, that's on you.
The cringiest thing about nursing unions is that claim to be "for the patients" but in all reality are self-serving to utmost degree. Pontification is almost a virtue.
Also, unions don't prevent hospitals writing you up for being late, not getting modules done etc. They have no power over something like that because most unions also that dictate that RNs have to abide by hospital bylaws, policies and procedures which includes timeliness and required education. This isn't frivilous.

Actually, it isn’t in any violation. It is well within her right to do so and any manager is allowed to nominate an employee for a cash bonus. It isn't some off the books-under the table agreement. The VA may be the cushiest in terms of pay and benefits but there are days where me and my fellow RNs are running around all day.

Believe it or not there are hospitals who don’t treat their employees well. Sorry. As I said my last hospital treated me and everyone elselike a number. Like I said, you must be doing something wrong if you are running ads for hiring fairs every 6 months. Sure, other area hospitals hire but not at the rate of others. Scroll through the boards here. There are plenty of examples of horrible employers.

You are correct. Other hospitals do have an idea as to what others pay. When they dont try to compete with other hospitals in terms of pay (again my old employer) doesn't sound like treating your employees well to me. My old employer had a $1 shift differential. That's it. Other hospitals offered much more. So, you're wrong there.

You can say the same thing for nursing as a whole as being archaic. Nursing school. Clinicals. Nursing has changed so much yet schools refuse to change and adapt. By the way, my union dues are $20 a month. So if my calculations are correct my yearly dues are $240, much less than the $2k you wrongly estimated.

It is true they cant prevent you from getting written up but they can prevent you from being wrongly terminated. Unions arent perfect (as I have stated) but to say they are useless is wrong. You say the union only cares about themselves. You think hospital administrators dont think of themselves? Please. How many times have they said "sorry no room in the budget" yet they hire another executive or they give themselves that "hard earned" bonus.

Nurselexii · May 3, 2020

Oh I love this question, I used to work in the UK, Irelandddd, Australia and now us(although I'm no longer a bedside nurse)

background:started in usa and decided to work overseas.

to answer your question we got paid maybe what a U.S top paying CNA would make but there is much less bureaucracy than in usa, also in uk many people do not want to end up in The nhs, because of the following reasons: 1.there is a waiting line depending on how serious your condition is,

2.you dont get to choose your provider (unless you go private)

many brits take their healthcare more seriously, we did have way higher patient ratios (but imo less acuity due to less co morbidity)

pluses of the uk nurse : way way longer paid time off I'm talking 8 weeks off a year whuch does not include allowed, longer bereavement time off, personal time off ,1 year maternity leave (paid dont quote me about the full year paid but pretty sure) and 3 months paternity leave.

not sure if they are still doing this, but you dont have to pay to train as a nurse if you are a british citizen, nurses as well as other brits get something similar to a pension

negative (to some): nurses are not practicing to the same level in the uk as usa, I.e think very old school nursing like making the beds, crushing pills, they have less autonomy than a us nurse.

nhs: uses the must minimum diagnostic tools to diagnose and treat a patient I.e a sethescope and clinical indicators to dx chf vs an echo. No fancy smancy drugs (unless you go private) you get warfarin, thats it there isn't a huge pharma to advertise pills for every ill (and you will not see a pharma commercial every 5 minutes) that right there will lower your blood pressure

overall: There are pluses and minuses if its any consolation a UK doctor makes what a very experienced RN makes, the two proffesions in the uk are making a decent living.

Nurselexii · May 3, 2020

21 hours ago, Silverdragon102 said:
This should give you an idea. Just put in an area https://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-to-rent.html

If you move up north or even a place I really liked was Northern Ireland it is very affordable, I would saynorthern ireland a house there would be comparable to a house in smallsouthern town, England near london may be overpriced and crowded, essex is nice alot of londoners moved to essex, the further away from london you go the more affordable (personally london is not london as I once remembered it you mat not want to live close to it)

Guest1144461 · May 3, 2020

1 hour ago, OUxPhys said:
Actually, it isn’t in any violation. It is well within her right to do so and any manager is allowed to nominate an employee for a cash bonus. It isn't some off the books-under the table agreement. The VA may be the cushiest in terms of pay and benefits but there are days where me and my fellow RNs are running around all day.
Believe it or not there are hospitals who don’t treat their employees well. Sorry. As I said my last hospital treated me and everyone elselike a number. Like I said, you must be doing something wrong if you are running ads for hiring fairs every 6 months. Sure, other area hospitals hire but not at the rate of others. Scroll through the boards here. There are plenty of examples of horrible employers.
You are correct. Other hospitals do have an idea as to what others pay. When they dont try to compete with other hospitals in terms of pay (again my old employer) doesn't sound like treating your employees well to me. My old employer had a $1 shift differential. That's it. Other hospitals offered much more. So, you're wrong there.
You can say the same thing for nursing as a whole as being archaic. Nursing school. Clinicals. Nursing has changed so much yet schools refuse to change and adapt. By the way, my union dues are $20 a month. So if my calculations are correct my yearly dues are $240, much less than the $2k you wrongly estimated.
It is true they cant prevent you from getting written up but they can prevent you from being wrongly terminated. Unions arent perfect (as I have stated) but to say they are useless is wrong. You say the union only cares about themselves. You think hospital administrators dont think of themselves? Please. How many times have they said "sorry no room in the budget" yet they hire another executive or they give themselves that "hard earned" bonus.

Once again, its the VA that's not real life for 99.9% of nurses. Look I am not going to argue with you. You are for unions, I got it. I just didn't want to be a wage slave my entire life. I like being compensated for my work now and am much happier because of it. Nothing more depressing as seeing your friends in other careers climbing up the production based salary ladder a you hold out for that 1 dollar raise every year...lmao. As a NP my job is a 100x more liable for patient care but I don't need a union to protect me.

Nurselexii · May 3, 2020

16 hours ago, Tenebrae said:
Mehh dont know about you, I find 18% a bit of a too high deviation for my liking. If someone is going to quote stats, get it right
forget who said it "The test of a societys morals is how it treats its most vulnerable". I'm glad to live in a country that should I ever end up being sick or in an accident I won't have to take out a second mortgage or sell a vital organ just to pay the medical bills. I'll never forget having a conversation with a US friend (who had become a naturalised NZ citizen) who ended up with a terminal cancer diagnosis. This friend was asked if they would go back home to be close to their friends and family and no, they chose to finish out their life in NZ because for them to go back to the US would have left their family with a legacy of debt and stress.
I find it a fairly sad indictment on a system when a country person would rather die half way around the world than go home to their country of birth
And there are those who despite all the best will and interventions in the world will never be able to fully participate in the market place and work full time, those with an intellectual disability, chronic mental illness. Do we choose to allow them to naturally fade out, IMO as a society we have a duty to care for those who are unable to care for themselves

Oh that is a beautiful statement (although I'm on the US side)

OUxPhys, BSN, RN · May 3, 2020

19 minutes ago, Numenor said:
Once again, its the VA that's not real life for 99.9% of nurses. Look I am not going to argue with you. You are for unions, I got it. I just didn't want to be a wage slave my entire life. I like being compensated for my work now and am much happier because of it. Nothing more depressing as seeing your friends in other careers climbing up the production based salary ladder a you hold out for that 1 dollar raise every year...lmao. As a NP my job is a 100x more liable for patient care but I don't need a union to protect me.

LOL. I've gotten waayyy more than a $1 raise every year but that's neither here nor there. What's funny is I've never been a big union guy (still not because I see the negatives with a union that you seem to gloss over). This is the first time I've had a job that even offered a union. Anyways, agree with the wage slave thing, which is why I left my old job (poor compensation for busting my tail) for this job (better compensation for busting my tail).

GrumpyRN, NP · May 3, 2020

1 hour ago, Nurselexii said:
1.there is a waiting line depending on how serious your condition is,
2.you dont get to choose your provider (unless you go private)

Yes, life saving stuff gets done immediately, life enhancing stuff has to wait - better than not getting any treatment at all because you can't afford it or your insurance denies it.

Curious what the general public knows about medical staff? What criteria would they use to pick say, a surgeon? As an example, Harold Shipman was loved by his patients who all thought he was a great doctor.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Shipman

1 hour ago, Nurselexii said:
negative (to some): nurses are not practicing to the same level in the uk as usa, I.e think very old school nursing like making the beds, crushing pills, they have less autonomy than a us nurse.

Rubbish!

1 hour ago, Nurselexii said:
hs: uses the must minimum diagnostic tools to diagnose and treat a patient I.e a sethescope and clinical indicators to dx chf vs an echo.

Again rubbish!

1 hour ago, Nurselexii said:
No fancy smancy drugs (unless you go private) you get warfarin, thats it there isn't a huge pharma to advertise pills for every ill (and you will not see a pharma commercial every 5 minutes) that right there will lower your blood pressure

And there was me wondering what all those patients were doing on things like Rivaroxiban and all these other pills.

1 hour ago, Nurselexii said:
There are pluses and minuses if its any consolation a UK doctor makes what a very experienced RN makes, the two proffesions in the uk are making a decent living.

I agree.

speedynurse, ADN, BSN, RN, EMT-P · May 3, 2020

On 4/26/2020 at 10:06 PM, LovingLife123 said:
They get paid much less. I know if an ICU nurse in the UK who posted her pay. It was the equivalent of $15.73 an hour here.

And yes, if we went to a single payer system, nurses would get paid less. Our ratios would be higher as well.

WOW!.....that is lower than what I got paid as an ER tech.....

DesiDani · May 4, 2020

18 hours ago, LovingLife123 said:
But, I was responding to the OPs original question and it went off on tangents. The question was should we here in the US expect our pay to go down with a single payer system. I responded yes. I responded with some pay rates I had seen in other countries with this type of system. My response had nothing to do with nurse satisfaction or the quality of care in other countries and that is where my answer was taken.

This question is longer than what I expected