I am watching Michael Moore's "Sicko" for the first time....

[Valerie Salva]

And I am just blown away. I am incredulous.

I have felt for a while that we should have universal health care here in the US, but I didn't know things were this bad. We really should be ashamed that GTMO Bay prisoners get free (and very good quality, from the looks of it) health care and 9/11 rescue workers are suffering from 9/11 related health conditions and have no coverage.

And hospitals removing their names from the pt bracelets of ill, unisured pts, and having cabs drop them on Skid Row?

And insurance company physicians admitting that they know they caused the death of pts by denying claims in order to save the ins company money?

What is the matter with us that our health care system is ranked #37 among industrialized nations?

To me, this is not about politics, not about personal responsibility, it's not about cost- it's just about what is right and what is wrong.

I know the Canadian and other universal health care systems have their problems, but they are not run on a foundation of greed and denial of care as ours is.

I am very fortunate that I have good health insurance, but this could change at any time. I am willing to pay more taxes so that all US citizens can get free or low-cost health care that is not connected with a job, and can move with the citizen and cover them wherever they are and whatever their circumstances are.

Are you?

What do you think?

[Elvish, BSN, DNP, RN, NP]

The reason their infant mortality rate is so "low" is because they either don't actually know what it is, or they are lying about it.

It's ludicrous to think they have a mechanism in place to collect that data.

Not so ludicrous:

http://www.sld.cu/galerias/pdf/sitios/dne/cuba2007.pdf

[Honnête et Sérieux]

Just because they created a document, it doesn't mean that they didn't fabricate it; honesty is hard to come by in a totalitarian society.

[Atheos]

Just because they created a document, it doesn't mean that they didn't fabricate it; honesty is hard to come by in a totalitarian society.

Indeed it is.

Bush Lies For War

Bush Admins Top 40 Lies

Bush Lies Archive

Iraq On The Record

Bush, Aide made 935 false statements in run-up to war

I guess truth is hard to come by in a totalitarian government...

Hmmm...

[Honnête et Sérieux]

Oddly, everything in this was supported by our current secretary of state, and nearly every other "new change" official *clinton recycle* recently appointed by our new president who is expanding the war in Afghanistan...with no exit strategy.

[Elvish, BSN, DNP, RN, NP]

Just because they created a document, it doesn't mean that they didn't fabricate it; honesty is hard to come by in a totalitarian society.

Would you provide some evidence to back up your claim that it's fabricated? Otherwise I'm going to dismiss what you say.

[amarilla, RN]

Would you provide some evidence to back up your claim that it's fabricated? Otherwise I'm going to dismiss what you say.

With all due respect, is it really so unbelievable that figures are fudged to promote a false perception, particularly in a country like Cuba?

Ever have a gander at the creative reporting done by law enforcement (to promote 'decreased crime' boasts, of course)? What about some balance sheet wizardry (current financial collapse should be proof enough that numbers can easily be manipulated and reported publicly)? Public news stories which turn out to be publicity-seeking hoaxes or even outright lies?

It happens plenty everywhere, particularly when there is something at stake.

How about a Cuban's perspective?

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=2C9F6E90-C870-44D9-9E44-44CBB06629C5

In April 2001 Dr. Juan Felipe García MD, of Jacksonville, Florida, interviewed several recent doctor defectors from Cuba. Based on what he heard his report may discomfit some Sicko fans. "The official Cuban infant-mortality figure is a farce," asserts Dr. Garcia. "Cuban pediatricians constantly falsify figures for the regime. If an infant dies during its first year the doctor often reports he was older. Otherwise such lapses could cost him severe penalties and his job."

A samizdat smuggled out of Cuba in January 2003 by Mario Enrique Mayo reported that Dr Olga Oropeza from Camagüey province was severely reprimanded by her hospital chief Leonardo Ramirez for delivering a premature baby. "That could raise this hospital's infant-mortality rate!" Ramirez berated the terrified woman.

According to a report by the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons, the mortality rate of Cuban children aged 1 to 4 is 34% higher than the U.S. (11.8 versus 8.8 per 1000). But these don't figure into U.N.-spotlighted "infant-mortality rates," you see. So apparently the pressure (so far) is not on Cuban doctors to fudge these figures.

The Association of American Physicians and Surgeons also reports that the current maternal mortality rate in Cuba is almost FOUR TIMES the U.S. rate (33 versus 8.4 per 1000). Peculiar (and tragic) how so many mothers die during childbirth in Cuba? And how many 1–4 year olds perish, while from birth to one year old (the period during which they qualify in U.N. statistics as infants) they're perfectly healthy?

Or related observations from a Cuban physician?

http://www.miamiherald.com/509/story/148897.html

Dr. Julio Cesar Alfonso, 39, who practiced medicine in Cuba for four years before coming to Miami in 1999, describes the Cuban healthcare system as ''a disaster,'' from doctors reusing needles to draw blood from patients (and keeping a sharpening stone for the needles ) to the X-ray machine at Cardenas Regional Hospital, which hasn't been replaced since 1959.

''The treatment Moore and the rescue workers receive in the film was done specifically for them, because they knew it would make great propaganda,'' says Alfonso, a general practitioner in Little Havana. ``The medical centers in Cuba that treat tourists and government officials and VIPs are very different than the ones that treat the general population. If you're a Cuban citizen and need a prescription drug, most doctors either tell you to ask your relatives in the U.S. to ship it to you or recommend alternative herbal remedies. That's the degree of scarcity on the island.''

There is more, of course, but these were the first results I could pull up.

There is a lot of misinformation out there. Moore himself admits that all of his assertions may not check out, with the greater purpose to rile people and provoke outrage, which it admittedly does.

Best,

Southern

Edited to Add:

Anyone interested in reviewing some of the potentially problematic aspects of the WHO rankings might find this article intriguing:

http://agoraphilia.blogspot.com/2007/07/whos-healthcare-rankings-part-1.html

Again, numbers can be easily manipulated; this article, (in 3 parts), explores some of how factors skew the (heavily) reported results, (i.e., U.S. being #37, etc.)

[Elvish, BSN, DNP, RN, NP]

With all due respect, is it really so unbelievable that figures are fudged to promote a false perception, particularly in a country like Cuba?

I'm not saying it's impossible. I'm just saying that if you're (universal you) going to make a statement like that, you need to be able to back it up with some documentation.

I do have to ask - why would Cuba be any more likely to fudge their numbers than, say, the United States? Our gov't has been known to skew numbers to make themselves look good here and there. I'm just sayin....

[Valerie Salva, BSN, RN]

Honnête et Sérieux,

Your posts on this thread all have the same basic theme- if something supports your beliefs it is right and truthful. If something does not support your beliefs it is false and wrong.

[flightnurse2b, LPN]

Honnête et Sérieux,

Your posts on this thread all have the same basic theme- if something supports your beliefs it is right and truthful. If something does not support your beliefs it is false and wrong.

i think the nonbelievers of the health care crisis in this country do not and will not understand until it comes and and turns their lives upside down like it has to myself and my family. it is a sad state of affairs and quite possibly the reason why there is going to be such a delay in obtaining health care for all-- because people do not believe that either everyone deserves health care (ie the "i worked hard for my money, i decide where it goes, and it's not to help people get insurance) or that things are not as bad as those of us having problems with the system say because of the people who "work the system" (ie those on medicaid who seem to be able to afford fancy cars and expensive clothes).

i don't know what to say honestly.

we're all americans. no one gets to choose who lives and who dies because of a medical underwriting, a health insurance plan or a lack there of.

i would give the shirt off my back and the food in my fridge to a neighbor who asked for help. i don't have much, but i'm happy to share it.... and i wish other americans acted that way. we might be in better shape.

[Honnête et Sérieux]

Honnête et Sérieux,

Your posts on this thread all have the same basic theme- if something supports your beliefs it is right and truthful. If something does not support your beliefs it is false and wrong.

Pretty much applies to anyone in this discussion.

I'm pretty sure if you read my posts, they say "you are correct" or some similar theme far more often than most people.

I understand, though, when the majority believes one way (in favor of UHC), then it's tough for them to tolerate a strong and well-articulated opinion from someone who doesn't agree with them.

Unlike those who think I need to be the only one to flex their direction in this discussion, I would never fault anyone just for disagreeing. I simply feel it's fair to challenge them when their premise is based on platforms that may be flawed, or are built on mere criticisms of other people (i.e. Bush, McCain, every conservative that ever took a breath of air, etc).

[Honnête et Sérieux]

i think the nonbelievers of the health care crisis in this country do not and will not understand until it comes and and turns their lives upside down like it has to myself and my family. it is a sad state of affairs and quite possibly the reason why there is going to be such a delay in obtaining health care for all-- because people do not believe that either everyone deserves health care (ie the "i worked hard for my money, i decide where it goes, and it's not to help people get insurance) or that things are not as bad as those of us having problems with the system say because of the people who "work the system" (ie those on medicaid who seem to be able to afford fancy cars and expensive clothes).

i don't know what to say honestly.

we're all americans. no one gets to choose who lives and who dies because of a medical underwriting, a health insurance plan or a lack there of.

i would give the shirt off my back and the food in my fridge to a neighbor who asked for help. i don't have much, but i'm happy to share it.... and i wish other americans acted that way. we might be in better shape.

You see, it's this kind of conjecture and generalization that misrepresents people's positions.

It's not fair or accurate to imply that people who oppose a gov't run UHC system have never had their lives turned "upside down." Everyone has their sad story to tell; no one has cornered the market on misery.

It's also not fair to imply that they don't want want their own money to be used to help others get coverage. The reality is that MOST of us would gladly give, but we are not willing to let the gov't be the steward or broker of this task given their dismal performance in almost every other program they try to run with our money.

When we give this task to the gov't, we simply pass the 'choice' of who lives or dies to our politicians. Is it really the minority who think this is a terrible idea?

I am also willing to give of my things (which are few because I am about as materialistic as a Hutterite), but I don't understand why folks don't realize that we can be individually charitable to the benefit of all without letting the team with the absolutely worst record of financial and social management in history (our gov't), deciding who pays and who receives.

[Honnête et Sérieux]

I'm not saying it's impossible. I'm just saying that if you're (universal you) going to make a statement like that, you need to be able to back it up with some documentation.

I do have to ask - why would Cuba be any more likely to fudge their numbers than, say, the United States? Our gov't has been known to skew numbers to make themselves look good here and there. I'm just sayin....

In fairness, if Osouth is expected to back up a statement about Cuba with documentation, then it would seem some supporting evidence would be forthcoming about the allegation that the US has 'skewn' numbers.

But obviously we haven't, or else we wouldn't be ranked 37th.