How to handle an abusive surgeon?

justme1972 · Apr 24, 2008

I would ask to speak to hiim one day after the surgical day is over, privately.

Tell him that you love your job, you liked working with him (a lie, but sometimes it helps to eat crow), however, that you have to be honest in staying that being screamed at and degraded during a surgical procedure in front of your coworkers is unprofessional...that you treat him with respect as the physician/surgeon, and expect the same in return.

What he says NEXT will tell you how you need to proceed.

I personally, don't give a rats behind about someone's culture as giving them a pass on how people act in the workplace...if they are working here, then they have been in America long enough to understand what social graces are.

HOWEVER, with that said, make absolutely sure, that nothing that he has yelled at you for happened during a critical moment during surgery. I can also understand where a surgeon would "lose it" when everyone is "business as usual" and something happens where he needs everyone around him to work as optimum speed in order to protect the client--b/c in his mind the clock is racing and seconds are seemingly eternal.

To me that just comes with the territory, and something like that I wouldn't take personally.

After all, it's him that is most likely to get sued if something goes wrong.

surgigaltheatre · Apr 26, 2008

As the Scrub RN in theatre I believe that I am just as important as the surgeon, we need each other to get the work done. I, from my side, do everything expected of me, to ensure that all he will need, is availablel. If I have done something wrong, I will accept, and appologize. I will not be abused by any one!! I have had many bouts with surgeons who try to throw their weight around, and have found that if you stand up for yourself, they usually back down!! I believe that there should be respect between both the surgeon and Scrub person!! It is vital that each hospital has a system which protects its workers against this type of abuse, and all should know how to activate and use this system!! Greetings from a sunny South Africa!! :nurse:

GadgetRN71, ASN, RN · Apr 26, 2008

I would ask to speak to hiim one day after the surgical day is over, privately.
Tell him that you love your job, you liked working with him (a lie, but sometimes it helps to eat crow), however, that you have to be honest in staying that being screamed at and degraded during a surgical procedure in front of your coworkers is unprofessional...that you treat him with respect as the physician/surgeon, and expect the same in return.
What he says NEXT will tell you how you need to proceed.
I personally, don't give a rats behind about someone's culture as giving them a pass on how people act in the workplace...if they are working here, then they have been in America long enough to understand what social graces are.
HOWEVER, with that said, make absolutely sure, that nothing that he has yelled at you for happened during a critical moment during surgery. I can also understand where a surgeon would "lose it" when everyone is "business as usual" and something happens where he needs everyone around him to work as optimum speed in order to protect the client--b/c in his mind the clock is racing and seconds are seemingly eternal.
To me that just comes with the territory, and something like that I wouldn't take personally.
After all, it's him that is most likely to get sued if something goes wrong.

I agree with most of your post except the part about lawsuits..these days anyone involved with the case in question will get sued. Surgeons will also throw you under the bus to save their own hide. This is why I document within an inch of my life on the OR record, and I carry my own malpractice insurance.(despite the fact that my hospital doesn't want us to have it:rolleyes:) CYA is my new motto!

brewerpaul · Apr 29, 2008

I'm thinking maybe a towel clamp down where the sun don't shine might get the message across...

Marie_LPN, RN, LPN, RN · Apr 30, 2008

I'm thinking maybe a towel clamp down where the sun don't shine might get the message across...

A Jacob's tenaculum gets the "point" across w/ the risk of contaminating yourself, though.... :smokin:

Vikingkitten · Apr 30, 2008

[This can be a diificult situation to deal with because of the "culture" of OR nursing that has stuck around for years. Many of the older nurses in my hospital tolerate the abuse. Obviously, this sort of behavior should not be tolerated by anyone.]
I completely agree. We have the exact same problem, the older nurses just seem to take the abuse (it's just normal for them), they let newbies be demoralised in front of the entire OR team and it's quite sad really....
I can be fairly forgiving, if it's a surgeon who is being a bit snappy because he is under pressure then that's fine, we all have these moments. But if it's just outright abuse then NO it's not right.
I have found that a simple 'I don't appreciate being spoken to in this manner' or a 'your behaviour is out of line, do not speak to me like that' to work quite well. It usually shuts them up and they soon realise that i'm not a martyr and can stick up for myself. If you just put up with it then they know that they can get away with what they are doing.
If they start screaming at me and throw instruments around (thankfully this doesn't happen too often) then I get my scout to call the team leader and have the floor senior in there to sort them out. If my scout refuses out of fear of the surgeon then i would tell them that the team leader needs to come in or i have to unscrub. This may seem extreme (and even like abandonment) but for the sake of my mental and physical health (increased risk of sharps injuries which is backed by research). And also the poor patient deserves better than an out of control surgeon operating on them, and a scrub nurse who is so demoralised that they cannot focus on what they are doing.
I think the best way to look at these sorts of problems is to remember how much hard work you put into studying to become a nurse. Did you go through all those years of study just to be someone's punching bag? Nobody deserves to be yelled at in front of their coworkers, and certainly not when your scrubbed.
I really do hope that you stick up for yourself. I really believe that unless we do speak out nursing will not advance as a profession.

:up:I like some of your ideas for handling "difficult surgeons" AKA A**holes! I didn't allow that kind of behavior when I was runnng an OR. Matter of fact, pulled the Circ. and Scrub out of a particularly abuse ENT's room, and told him he wasn't going to get a crew back until he learned to behave. Amazing how quickly his attitude and demeanor changed, and yes, I was rolling the dice on the abandonment thing, but no way was I going to put up with that. I did promise myself, when I was a young Medic, that if I ever got into a position of authority, it wouldn't occur in my OR. :nono:

The other things we have to endure IS Supervisors that tell you, "Well, they're Doctors, you can't do anything about it." B S! I've been in many ORs where that isn't tolerated. Even had a nurse in California (who's husband was a Corporal in the CHP) had a particularly abuse Dr. who threw instruments arrested. Lead out in handcuffs and booked for Battery! Gotta love her solution! :yeah: :bow:

OBMDPHD · Nov 12, 2008

I am coming to this discussion from the "other side of the table", I am a former Police Officer in Los Angeles County and currently a Trauma and Plastic Surgeon in Europe. I wholeheartedly agree with all of the comments I have read! There is absolutely NO REASON for surgeons to act like jerks :bugeyes: - we are a team and every single one of us in the OR is vital. These Prima Donnas give ALL surgeons a bad rep, and we are not all like that! (see my post under "Ever been kicked out of an OR?").

Now I admit that things in Trauma get dicey at times, but confident, knowledgeable surgeons DO NOT go psycho, I stay calm:saint:, which has a tendency to keep the rest of the team calm. If the surgeon is "freaking out":nono:, throwing instruments (childish), everyone will feel the effects.

Respect (which must go both ways) is VITAL, and I respect my team as we get the job done together - I do not do surgery alone! Now I admit surgeons are Type A overachievers, perfectionists, but how difficult is it to take that confidence and respect my team members? It is not. I get far more done with honey :redbeathe, than with acid!! I show respect at all times, and I get it back from all the nurses! If something goes wrong, it is just a mistake - not a reason to throw things. If I need to talk to a nurse (rare), then it is done after the procedure, calmly, no cussing and I don't involve her nursing supervisor! BUT - if I screw up (that's technical talk - LOL!) my nurses know they can talk to me without any petty anger or repercussions!! Big deal, we all make mistakes and we should learn from them! I also love to teach, and a nurse asking questions shows me she is intelligent and willing to learn! I have also learned some amazing "tricks" from nurses, so I keep my mind open to new ideas - always.

All of the nurses, in all of the hospitals I work in, love to work with me and will actually volunteer and argue with each other to work with me rather than work with a few of the A-hole surgeons! They consider me a friend, and often come to me to vent their personal problems or ask for advice, and I can think of no higher compliment to receive from a nurse! :heartbeat I in turn love their work, as they always go out of their way to help me, since I treat them with the kindness and respect they deserve.:bowingpur

I also buy lunches, dinners, etc., just as my way to show how much I appreciate their hard work, their hard work which ultimately makes me look good to the families and patients - as I am the one who talks to the family about a good :nuke: (or bad) outcome.

So just know that there are us "good guy" surgeons out there who really respect our nurses. I apologize to all of you for the jerks out there, hopefully they retire - and soon:yeah:!

As far as how to handle these morons - I think you are all right on target, stand up for yourself and don't let them get away with any B.S.!!!!

Now for one of my lame Jokes: Ask a surgeon to name the three best surgeons he knows, and he won't be able to tell you the other two! LOL! :chuckle

You are all in my heart and prayers, hang in there, keep the faith and thank-you for your great work and dedication!:redbeathe:redpinkhe

ShariDCST · Nov 13, 2008

i noticed one thing regarding the situation described by the original poster, and the answers provided. the op is located in the uk, and the answers given so far are from nurses in the us and one from austrailia. in the us, we have a less tolerant attitude towards abusive superiors, and have developed policies and procedures to protect the rest of us over time, such as those regarding workplace bullying, sexual harrassment, establishment of hostile work environments, cultural and race relations and not allowing discrimination based on many other factors. this is us policy and law. do such attitudes exist outside of the us in regards to the establishment of laws and policies to protect people?

is it possible that there is no policy for dealing with abusive surgeons in the hospital involved, perhaps due to cultural and professional standard differences? not saying this for sure - but it seems possible. there seems to be some differences in the culture of professional behavior depending on which country one lives in.

regardless of where one lives, however, one should not be expected to tolerate being directly abused by coworkers, bosses or superiors - my point is are there established policies and legal recourse outside of the us?

just a thought......

surgigaltheatre · Nov 13, 2008

Thank you very much!! I am so glad that there are surgeons in the world like you!! May you be blessed in the work that you do!! I love assisting with the trauma cases in theatre!!The best part of it is watching the patients walk out of hospital after recovery!!

Satori77, ADN · Nov 13, 2008

OBMDPHD, wish there were more surgeons like you. :yeah:

leavealegacyRN · Nov 26, 2008

We must commit to standing up to what is right. To tell the surgeon you cannot talk to me that way is the first approach and DON"T apologize before you state that. And then like our colleagues are saying, complete and incident report. There is lots written in the literature, that is kind of "violence" silences us from bringing up other concerns to a surgeon. Who wants to approach some angry arrogant surgeon? Great posts on this one!:yelclap:

orkwb · Nov 30, 2008

I try to remember that the surgeons also have lives outside the OR - that is they face many of the same struggles, pains, and problems as we all do. In addition they are under a lot of stress - patient/procedure-wise, and, business wise. They can an do have bad days and tend to take it out on those closest to them - the ones they spend most time with. While there is no excuse for abusive behavior, such thoughts as those above may help US to have a different perspective on a surgeons behavior. Truly abusive behavior that is consistently demonstrated must be confronted as this impacts patient care. The OR nurse cannot provide safe care if distracted by an abusive surgeon.