higher pay for BSN grads?

RainDreamer, BSN, RN · Aug 21, 2006

Ultimately, RNs are not paid the same, regardless that they are doing the same job. I get paid FAR more then a new grad. And, rightly so.
I get paid more BECAUSE of my experience. And THAT is a form of education. I simply have FAR more education in healthcare then any new grad, BSN or ADN. And that education is a function of my experience. And it is rewarded. And again, rightly so.
There is a rationale for more money for BSN. It is an incentive to move us in the right direction. If there is no incentive to achieve BSN, far fewer RNs will actually try. And the reverse is true.
I'm against a BSN minimum entry BECAUSE of who we leave behind. But I support the ideas of advancing our educational standards. And real incentives come down to money, not job titles.
Wouldn't you be upset if new grads were paid at EXACTLY your level, for years to come? It's the same thing. BSN does take more to attain, and should be appropriately rewarded, just like experience.
Or look at another way: if BSNs got paid 5 dollars more an hour, wouldn't most ADNs have a huge incentive to keep moving their education to that point? What else, besides money, is going to do that for the masses? Personal motivation, due to cost and time, and without ultimate financial incentive, is just not going to move the masses.
It didn't move me. I WAS personally motivated to get my bach degree. But without financial incentive, I saw no need, for me personally, to get a BSN. So, my bach degree is in biology. For a variety of reasons, and without proper motivation otherwise, it serves me better.
There is an advantage to moving RNs to baccalaureate prep. But, not at the expense of leaving some of us behind. Real financial incentives is the balance that achieves that.
Demanding BSN-entry won't fly. 40 yrs of effort ought to sufficiently prove that. But, minimizing the reward for different levels of prep, be it education OR experience, won't advance our profession, either.
Do you know why 'bracket creeps' are endemic to nursing (by that I mean that price of new grads go up faster then the raises you get along the way so that a 2 yr RN typically makes in the same ballpark as a new grad)? Because the same philosophy that affects BSN vs. ADN wages affects the bracket creep.
And you've NAMED the philosophy: all RNs should be paid the same for the same work. THAT is a philosophy most hospital administrations can only dream about.
~faith,
Timothy.

That's why I said we should all START at the same pay. I never meant that all nurses (experienced vs. new grads) get paid the same. I just meant that starting out, at my hospital, all new grads get the same pay, regardless of having a ADN or BSN.

zolly786 · Aug 28, 2006

in our province (we're all under a collective agreement), we all get the same wage, regardless of diploma (our adn in canada) or bsn. if you have a regular full time position, you get $100 a month more. if you are part time, it's pro-rated, and if you're casual, you don't get anything.

if you have a certificate (be it icu, gerontology or emerg), you get $50 per month.

if you have your masters, you get $25 more than if you had your degree.

i actually worked with this girl (bsn) who had the gall to say that she thought she should make more than a diploma nurse who had been working longer than this chicky had been alive. she didn't last long. ended up going travel nursing somewhere. when i told her she was being unreasonable, she told me it was because i "was just jealous" because i didn't have my degree. uh, no. i have mine. i was not hired as a bsn, i was hired as an rn and that's what my name tag says.

no in bc, all the nursing programs are bsn. but bsn isn't entry to practice like it is in ontario.

sunnyjohn · Aug 28, 2006

What we are talking about here is education and experience. Experience is worth more, because it's a form of education. Education should be worth more, as well, and in its own right.
......
There are advantages to BSN. We should be embracing those advantages. Not to the exclusion of ADN, because ADN has proven itself to be a phenomenally successful preparation for nurses.
One of the way to embrace those advantages is by ENCOURAGING the move from ADN to BSN. And that will not happen without the real advantage of an increasing salary. It would cost me 20k to go get my BSN right now. If we, as a group, want this to be the standard, we need to make that 20k a valid expense, and not just in the money, but in the time spent.
5 bucks an hour more for BSN WOULD be prudent. And, that would change the dynamics of original applications to BSN programs over ADN programs for those that CAN without dimiminishing opportunity for those that can't. Today, there are more ADN programs than BSN. Create a 5 buck/hr pay differential, and in 10 yrs, I'd bet BSN makes up 70% of programs.
And this can be done without the animosity that BSN entry is just going to continue.
......
(Tweety, can you see how my arguments and POV on this has changed and sharpened over time? There is SOME advantage to this 'tired old debate'. I HAVE given it lots of thought in the year plus I've been trolling around this board.)
~faith,
Timothy.

How about a "BSN/MSN/MN or other Bachelor's degree within five years of your first nursing position AND a $2-5 dollar wage increase" type deal?

How about a BSN for ADN and Diploma gained using a special combo of intense CEU-like self-study courses?

They could always give extensions in case of emergency.

And Timothy, I am starting to see were you are coming from in this whole thing. I'm still holding up my union sign, but I see your point. :lol2:

SmilingBluEyes · Aug 29, 2006

I would like to see higher ed differentials where I work. Yes, I think they deserve this and it would serve as incentive for others to work "their way up" to a higher degree of education. JMO.

romie · Aug 30, 2006

I find it appalling that ADNs and BSN prepared nurses would be paid the same. In most other fields of work, one's educational level is usually recognized financially. When I first started working in human services, I was told that since I had a bachelor's degree ( I have multiple non-nursing degrees), I would be getting paid $2.00 an hour more, which I did and appreciated. At another facility, I was offered at least $1.50 more than other people. When I became an Activity Director years later, I was offered more than $10,000 a year more than other candidates for the same position. When, in my suprise, I asked the administrator why they were willing to pay me so much, she stated, "because you have a master's degree." My personal experience in the non-nursing world has been Degree= more money. I personally will never sell myself short. I am about to begin an MSN entry program and hope to bypass the whole BSN ADN debate.

vamedic4, EMT-P · Aug 30, 2006

I work at a magnet metropolitan ICU (graduated last August with a BSN). Our hospital does pay BSN's a higher salary than ADN or Diploma nurses (I'm not sure of the exact difference but I think starting BSN's make about two dollars an hour more). New BSN grads are considered "clinical nurse" while ADN/Diploma are classified as "staff nurse", this designation is put on our name badges also. Only BSN grads are considered for entry level positions in ICU (adult, neonatal or pediatric) and ob/gyn positions (L&D, postpartum, high risk), I believe BSN is also required for entry level telemetry unit also. ADN/Diploma grads are hired in med/surg and skilled nursing/rehab, otherwise I know our hospital prefers BSN's for other positions. I work at the "big downtown" campus. I don't think this difference is found at the smaller "regional" hospitals (affiliated with our system)

Sounds a bit discriminatory if you ask me, because as we all know-BSN doesn't make you a better nurse, it makes you an RN with a Bachelor's degree.

vamedic4, EMT-P · Aug 30, 2006

I find it appalling that ADNs and BSN prepared nurses would be paid the same. In most other fields of work, one's educational level is usually recognized financially. When I first started working in human services, I was told that since I had a bachelor's degree ( I have multiple non-nursing degrees), I would be getting paid $2.00 an hour more, which I did and appreciated. At another facility, I was offered at least $1.50 more than other people. When I became an Activity Director years later, I was offered more than $10,000 a year more than other candidates for the same position. When, in my suprise, I asked the administrator why they were willing to pay me so much, she stated, "because you have a master's degree." My personal experience in the non-nursing world has been Degree= more money. I personally will never sell myself short. I am about to begin an MSN entry program and hope to bypass the whole BSN ADN debate.

Sorry to open this can of worms, too...maybe I'm off my rocker tonight, no...on second thought, I'm not.

Whether you're a BSN RN or ADN RN, your work is the same - unless your job entails being in charge, or other possibly management or educational duties you have. BSN RNs and AD RNs do the same work, both are RNs...IMO you should get the same pay for the same work, regardless of your degree status.

Now, if a BSN RN is also a CEN or CCRN, CPON, or whatever other alphabet soup they have earned...then ABSOLUTELY, pay them more - same being true of an ADN RN...if she's a CPN and her BSN counterpart is not, pay the ADN the bigger bucks.

vamedic4

just my $.02

romie · Aug 30, 2006

In all three cases I mentioned, I was doing the same exact work as other people who were paid less. Worked side by side.

Perhaps I am a snob, but I did invest over $135,000 (I am not exaggerating) in my college education and over 7 years of my life. I feel I should be compensated and in my case, I have always been.

But in all of my professional work, I have been regarded as a professional, not a technician. I have been fortunate to work in fields where my education,even if it didn't directly apply to my daily tasks, was highly valued. If I was merely a technician, then perhaps your line of thinking should apply. But I don't think nurses should ever be considered technicians.

sunnyjohn · Aug 30, 2006

I find it appalling that ADNs and BSN prepared nurses would be paid the same. In most other fields of work, one's educational level is usually recognized financially. When I first started working in human services, I was told that since I had a bachelor's degree ( I have multiple non-nursing degrees), I would be getting paid $2.00 an hour more, which I did and appreciated. At another facility, I was offered at least $1.50 more than other people. When I became an Activity Director years later, I was offered more than $10,000 a year more than other candidates for the same position. When, in my suprise, I asked the administrator why they were willing to pay me so much, she stated, "because you have a master's degree." My personal experience in the non-nursing world has been Degree= more money. I personally will never sell myself short. I am about to begin an MSN entry program and hope to bypass the whole BSN ADN debate.

Bypassing the debate is impossible. Even if you don't participate, you feel the affect (in your pocketbook).

The direct-entry MSN opens a whole other can of worms. Some RNs don't like the idea and most hospitial administrators have no idea where to place us. An MSN grad with only school clinical experience and a preceptorship? WHOOOOO!

As a new grad RN out of a direct-entry MSN program you will get the same pay as every other new grad. As someone who will enter a directy-entry program myself, I think this is more than fair. A new nurse needs time to be bought up to speed. Since the new grad (even with the MSN) does not have the experience to be charge, I would accept the differential offered the new BSN grads.

Of course with a few years experience, I willl put my MSN to good use and expect/demand/insist upon the compensation that comes with it.

The direct-entry grad is a special breed. IMHO we must be forceful (with regards to supporting the extensiveness of our training and our value in the workplace) but we should accept that like evey new grad, we are at the beginning of the learning curve.

IMO, BSN's should receive a pay diferential for the degree; $3-5.

Diploma, ADNs, BSNs and MSNs should ALL receive diferential pay for their certifications. This shows no disrespect to the ADN or diploma nurse while still valuing educational efforts.

Timothy is right. If there was a $3-5 dollar difference in pay more people would have another reason to justify taking the time from family and other obligations.

ZASHAGALKA, RN · Aug 30, 2006

A 3-5 dollar an hour differential for BSN will bring ALL RNs along.

See, it's a difference in perspective. The debate is so heated because it's been so polarized for so long when what was needed all along was a consensus.

Today's RN, regardless of entry, is a PROFESSIONAL NURSE, and each of us is entitled, as stakeholders, to claim that professionalism.

The question becomes, where do we want to go, AS A GROUP.

For far too long, BSN's have used the issue as a kind of intellectual whipping post: MY DEGREE IS BETTER THEN YOURS.

And ADNs have been rightly 'insulted' and, as a result, reactionary: same pay for same work.

Reality is in the middle. In fact, after years of trying to set up a 'differentiation of practice', there is little evidence that the differences in degrees merits such a differentiation.

AND IN FACT, education DOES matter.

The question is: where do we want to be as a group. If you are a BSN, there is some merit to the argument that a Bach standard for nursing will move us along in pay and respect.

And if you are an ADN, you are limited in salary, just like the BSNs. Most employers 'top out' our salaries at some point in your career.

A BSN differential will give ADNs an alternative avenue to avoid the 'topped out' salary and, later in your career, a case to advance that salary, IF YOU GO BACK AND GET THE DEGREE. But, getting that degree MUST be worth the cost. A salary diffential leads to not only that immediately being the case, as an incentive to move to a BSN, but in the creation of a common point from which to demand greater pay and autonomy: FOR ALL OF US.

Not having a consensus holds us ALL BACK. It limits our pay and autonomy for all. The result is that, for all practical purposes, BSNs do no better at the table then ADNs. While that is indeed a smug 'gotcha' to the 'technical' insult, such limits are limits placed on us all.

We must change our preconceptions and our 'us against them' mentality. That means each polarized position in this debate must concede key points. BSNs MUST concede that the gain of a BSN-standard is NOT about professionalism in the context of 'as opposed to our peers'. And that means understanding the reality that YOU, as a BSN, receive the relative SAME treatment as an ADN. So, WHERE YOU WANT TO BE is not in context of 'as opposed to ADN', but in conjunction WITH ADNs.

For the ADN, the key concession is the acknowledgment that there IS an advantage to BSN. Without disrespecting your point of entry, you must UNDERSTAND that the true credentials from which to argue our case involves a bach degree standard and the monetary differentials that create that standard. Because, while the argument IS valid that there are no significant differences between degrees and current practice, we are ALL being treated by our lowest common educational denomination, and raising that to a higher educational 'standard' will ultimately serve to bring us all along.

Moving towards a BSN will open up an avenue where, eventually, WE ALL BENEFIT.

But, there must be a first step. The VERY FIRST STEP, is to eliminate the polarization of this issue that the ANA created with their insult to ADNs. There must be a blanket acceptance and consensus that we are ALL professionals.

But, then, we have to get past this artificial limitation, which is really imposed on us from the outside: by hospitals and employers that DO NOT WANT TO BREAK THE CAPS ON SALARY - AND LIMITS ON AUTONOMY - THAT ARE COMFORTABLY IN PLACE FOR THEM - AND LIMITING TO US.

That means we must go along with the idea that more education means more money. The result of that will be to create a real incentive to have a 'higher' avenue from which to demand more money and autonomy, for us all. And it will skew the RN title towards BSN. Over a 10-15 yr period, as ever greater percentages of RNs either intially prepare to BSN for an initial salary differential, or take advantage of the monetary incentive to 'upgrade' their degrees, the profession will move along towards BSN. AT THAT POINT, when significant majorities of RNs ARE BSN, as a result of incentives instead of demands, only then can we re-evaluate minimum entries. But, first, lets realize and encourage the situations that begin to promote that view, INSTEAD of an all or nothing polarized debate.

The key concept is this: not a degradation of where we are today, but grasping at where we can be tomorrow. We must get beyond this useless argument over entry points and look forward, to a common point. Forget the polarization of the concept of BSN-entry. But, it IS time we worked to a common point of BSN-standard, that, no matter your point of entry, the point in common rises to BSN, with the goal of a tide that raises all our boats.

If you plan to be in nursing for 20 yrs, in THAT time, we can move to a BSN standard that creates a better working and wage condition for us all. I can say that without denigrating ADNs, of which, I am one. It's not an issue of having 'inferior' training. It's simply not. It IS an issue of creating the means of more bargaining power. Those means involve credibility - and in the BUSINESS WORLD - such credibility is significantly expressed in education. Our employers view this as a business. We should, too.

There is a consensus to be found here. It's just not at either end of the polarization of this debate. THANK you, ANA, for that useless polarization, created by your baseless name-calling and trivial academic elitism for the last 40 yrs.

No, the consensus is how do we get to a place that will suit us ALL better? It's time we had a 'rally point', a place from which we can demand what is ours. BSN is that point. That doesn't mean leaving some of us behind. It DOES mean creating the incentives that brings us ALL UP to the same place.

Right now, our 'default' place IS limited because of divergent entry points. I respect those divergent points of entry: they give us multiple avenues from which to attain the professionalism that is rightly ours. But, the NEXT step, is a common point, a rally point, from which to BE the unstoppable force that we SHOULD be.

BSN is that logical point. If implemented in an 'insult' free manner, it brings us all along, allowing ALL OF US access to a brighter future.

But this will NEVER be offered to us. We must demand it. And that requires a consensus of stakeholders and an acknowledgment that such power is beneficial to us all. In order to REACH that point, we must be united. Because, only as a group, can we demand what is rightfully ours: a true place at the table and a realistic cut of the take.

I'm not afraid of having to go back at some time in my career and add BSN to my title if it means the credibility to claim that place and that cut. But, I also will not tolerate the inference that I hold nursing back. I AM TODAY'S PROFESSIONAL RN, TODAY. But, neither extreme position is on point, and NEITHER serves us well. WE must find common ground.

And we must view this issue through a common lens: not as a point of contention, but as a 'tipping' point that serves the greater good of ALL RNs. We MUST decide, as a group, that we are IN THIS as a group. And, we must fundamentally understand this: this fractious debate does NOT serve ANY of OUR interests.

~faith,

Timothy.

vamedic4, EMT-P · Aug 30, 2006

:wink2: Timothy's done his homework, and it's so refreshing to read this thread.

123DanceWithMe · Aug 30, 2006

Do hospitals pay a different rate for BSN as opposed to ADN for travelling nurses? Does anyone know the difference in pay for travel?