I'm posting this in the general discussion rather than the student discussion, as I want to hear from people who were successful in doing something like this.
I'm the president of my ADN class, graduating this May. We have 17 students, 14 of them women. Our faculty is, almost entirely, *extremely* conservative, and the school is in a very small town. Our pinning ceremony is held in a church, and has pretty significant christian religious overtones, which I have a problem with; I think it's an inappropriate blurring of the line between church and state (this is a state-funded community college), and I've had a few students express discomfort with having the ceremony in this church. By the way- it's only held there for faculty preference; there's plenty of room on campus.
My main concern, though, is the attire for the ceremony. We're being forced to wear white dresses and caps. Now, we have to wear the caps in most clinical rotations, which is enough of an indignity (people think we're kidding, that other staff members are playing practical jokes on them by sending students in the room with caps on...it's nauseating, but I've tried to change this with no success). But I think it's ludicrous to insist we wear them at the pinning ceremony. It's *our* event, not the faculty's. In my opinion, the requirement that women wear dresses is inappropriately sexist, and from a logistical standpoint, *nobody* should be spending money on a white dress that will gather dust forever, when we have the expense of the NCLEX looming in our immediate future.
We have one student who wants to wear a white dress, and the others are adamantly opposed to it. I'm looking for ways to approach the program director with alternatives...I think that I need to have some suggestions, or he's just going to shut it down completely. Personally, this issue is important enough to me that I won't attend the ceremony if we have to wear the dresses. I know of at least 2 other women who plan to do the same thing.
My current plan is to have a meeting with the director and my vice-president to discuss the feelings our class has about the issue, and suggest a couple of alternatives- wearing nice, 'dressy' outfits, or wearing our clinical uniform (white smock and lab coat with navy pants). I'd like to hear from anyone else who had to address this issue, and how you resolved it. I'm also open to any suggestions *anyone* has...this director is extremely old-fashioned (he said he'd have us all wearing black stockings and orthopedic shoes, if he had his way), but he also respects me *specifically* because I'm confident and outspoken. By the way, if this were not the prevailing feeling of the other class members, I'd just skip the ceremony...I'm treating it like a class issue because I feel that's my role as the class president.
Also, please don't try to convince me we should be wearing the dresses. I don't really give a hoot about someone else's traditions that encourage disrespect and sexism, so the 'traditional' nurse's uniform is something I refuse to ever put on my body. I find the caps degrading enough...I am a medical professional in training, and there's nothing more irritating than having a doctor or nurse or patient say, 'how *cute*!!' when I walk into a room. If you disagree with me, I certainly respect your opinion, but I am absolutely certain of my position on this subject.
Specializes in PICU, Nurse Educator, Clinical Research.
At the hospital here, the chapel is down a relatively empty hallway. I'm not sure what else is even down that same hall.
Okay, if buildings and religious symbols shouldn't threaten anyone, why don't we take a group of Christians and expect them to hold a ceremony in a dark room with inverted pentagrams, baphomets, upside-down crosses, and goat heads all over the place? Keep in mind, this is just a public building where satanic rituals are held.
or a large portrait of an islamic cleric, or a huge statue of ganesh...or a torah on the altar. or all of the above.
as nurse_wannabe has pointed out, it's *not* because it's a christian church- it's because it's a *religious ceremony* for a *state institution*
Specializes in PICU, Nurse Educator, Clinical Research.
Well it should be for all of them. If they are all against it being in a Church they should rally for a change, my poinit was that a church is just a building. Why do people that don't believe in God or Religion feel threatened by a Church or religous symbols or anything at all?
My problem with your posts is that you make an assumption that, because I don't agree with YOU, I 'don't believe in god or religion'. the rest of your argument is based on this assumption, which is not correct. maybe that's why you don't understand my points.
I guess what I am saying is I am confident in my belief's and feel that everyone may worship or not who ever or whatever they feel they want to but I am not threatened by anyone elses religion or their sybolism or their practices. So Why are non-believers so threatened by the symbols we Believer's revere?
the point is that I'm not asking you to worship, at your public institution's graduation, the way *I* believe, or the way anyone else does.
and, you keep saying that I'm somehow threatened by religious observances. I'm not. I think I've said, numerous times, that I've attended religious services held my christians, jews, hindus, muslims, buddhists, and a few unitarian services that somehow rolled all these traditions into a single hour (now THAT was something to see!). As a person whose beliefs about god do not fit into the dominant paradigm in contemporary american society, i'm quite used to being told i'll be burning in hell. all i ask of you, and of anyone, is to realize what specific protections our constitution affords you, me, and everyone else in the US.
Time and time again, people get sidetracked like this, and they never really get at the root of the issue. you have chosen to dwell on the notion that a building does not a house of worship make- something about which we agree. but try to really understand what I'm saying, without getting wrapped up in making this about 'believers' (do you mean christians?) and 'nonbelievers' (again, I don't know precisely what you mean by this term- and whether or not you mean that someone who doesn't believe in god at all is somehow less valuable than someone who does).
the fact that my argument holds legal merit is what makes the US different from some of the countries on this planet who have a state-sanctioned religion (or prohibiton thereof). the same constitution that protects me and my beliefs protects *you* and your belief system. personally, I think it's one of the most important protections afforded by our government.
It is actually quite an interesting phenomenon. Think about it if you are non-religious or do not beleive in God then you are obviously not afraid to be a non-believer or announce that you don't believe in God(which to me would be the very thing that would brings God's wrath if that were something you feared), but the symbols that we use to worship scare or threaten or offend to the point that feelings are that they are subjected to our belief system just by being in the presence of it's symbols?
I hope my earlier comments have cleared up this misperception- there's not a symbol on this planet that scares, threatens, or offends me. in fact, I find the symbology of many religious to be quite beautiful- which was part of why I studied religions.
this weekend, I took care of a brain cancer patient who happened to be a devout muslim. his wife brought in prayer bottles, and asked that I made sure they were not accidentally discarded. I asked her to explain the significance of the prayer bottles, and she demonstrated the ritual for me. I thought it was incredibly beautiful, and I told her so. when I left last night, I thought about how wonderful it is that this family felt at ease observing this tradition on our hospital, when, in many corners of the world, it would have to be done in secret. that, for me, embodies why I am pursuing this issue in the first place.
I totally agree with your point- lots of other functions are held in churches- AA meetings, community events- that are open to people of all beliefs, and are not religious services.
I still contend, however, that your 'if x = y, and y = z, then x = z' argument about religious people attending ceremonies in other buildings is erroneous. If you- as a christian- were asked to attend your graduation in a mosque, with an invocation given by an imam, and the men and women were going to be asked to sit separately, and pray, and bow to mecca- would you? Personally, I think you would not. I've asked a lot of people, devout followers of many faiths, how they feel about this topic, and they all agree with me- even my closest friend at school, who happens to be a devout evangelical christian. she respects my position, and we have actual discussions- civil ones- about the topic.
yes.
yes.
yes.
The director of the program is some sort of official in his church, and various faculty members have, in the past, sung christian songs and/or read scripture.
Religion 101. I mentioned before that I was a religious studies minor at University, so I know this. But including the aforementioned elements *makes* the ceremony a reliious one.
Indeed. And it is not legal, in the US, for a faculty member of a state-funded institution to take on the role of a spiritual leader in the context of a graduation observation.
I think you're being inflammatory, and making an assumption that isn't valid. No building *threatens* me. I have attended many religious ceremonies, held in all types of buildings- ornate chathedrals, converted warehouses, barns, hindu temples- and never once did I feel threatened. Whether or not I believe in god or organized religion isn't the point- in fact, I don't think I said whether I did or not. the point is that, in this country, our constitution specifically protects *both* the state AND the church by separating the two. Blurring that line, by having this event in a church, and filling the ceremony itself with prayer and deference to a *specific* faith, is where I think the problem lies.
If I 'had no belief', then absolutely, the "church" would have no meaning at all. Again, you make an assumption without having all the data- that, if I don't agree with your belief system, I must have none at all. I think I've clearly articulated, through several posts, what my problem is. No building has ANY significance to me, based on the building alone. If this event were being held in a very large cardboard box, but contained the same faith-specific elements, my problem would still exist.
I hope I have, as you requested, explained thoroughly what the issue is.
You are absolutely correct I made assumptions with out all the data. Which is what I have been asking for all along. Now you mention prayer and being lead by the minister and several other things. I never attempted to be inflammatory I attempted to pose my querry so that it would not offend anyone, and no you never said you didn't believe which is why I stated IF you don't believe or IF organized religion. I was merely trying to gain full understanding. It seems you have a valid concern, but prior to this it was not clear there would be prayer and Minister officiating etc. My theory was if you were just protesting the Separation of Church and state I could see getting around it. If you have bigger issues then go for the change, hey I am just discussing the matter I am in no way emotional about it, if I have offended I apolgize, thanks for the clarification.
You seem like a worthy Class President, and staunch advocate you will likely make a wonderful nurse!
Congratulations on your graduation and Good Luck in all your endeavors!!!
My problem with your posts is that you make an assumption that, because I don't agree with YOU, I 'don't believe in god or religion'. the rest of your argument is based on this assumption, which is not correct. maybe that's why you don't understand my points.
the point is that I'm not asking you to worship, at your public institution's graduation, the way *I* believe, or the way anyone else does.
and, you keep saying that I'm somehow threatened by religious observances. I'm not. I think I've said, numerous times, that I've attended religious services held my christians, jews, hindus, muslims, buddhists, and a few unitarian services that somehow rolled all these traditions into a single hour (now THAT was something to see!). As a person whose beliefs about god do not fit into the dominant paradigm in contemporary american society, i'm quite used to being told i'll be burning in hell. all i ask of you, and of anyone, is to realize what specific protections our constitution affords you, me, and everyone else in the US.
Time and time again, people get sidetracked like this, and they never really get at the root of the issue. you have chosen to dwell on the notion that a building does not a house of worship make- something about which we agree. but try to really understand what I'm saying, without getting wrapped up in making this about 'believers' (do you mean christians?) and 'nonbelievers' (again, I don't know precisely what you mean by this term- and whether or not you mean that someone who doesn't believe in god at all is somehow less valuable than someone who does).
the fact that my argument holds legal merit is what makes the US different from some of the countries on this planet who have a state-sanctioned religion (or prohibiton thereof). the same constitution that protects me and my beliefs protects *you* and your belief system. personally, I think it's one of the most important protections afforded by our government.
I hope my earlier comments have cleared up this misperception- there's not a symbol on this planet that scares, threatens, or offends me. in fact, I find the symbology of many religious to be quite beautiful- which was part of why I studied religions.
this weekend, I took care of a brain cancer patient who happened to be a devout muslim. his wife brought in prayer bottles, and asked that I made sure they were not accidentally discarded. I asked her to explain the significance of the prayer bottles, and she demonstrated the ritual for me. I thought it was incredibly beautiful, and I told her so. when I left last night, I thought about how wonderful it is that this family felt at ease observing this tradition on our hospital, when, in many corners of the world, it would have to be done in secret. that, for me, embodies why I am pursuing this issue in the first place.
Your previous comment did clear it up I am not sure what you mean by some of this, I don't get too wrapped up in organized religion I simplify things and break it down to Believers and non-bleievers, I never say which camp is correct and I never said either camp was better just different. I never said anyone was threatened by religious symbols I asked what the problems were.
Specializes in PICU, Nurse Educator, Clinical Research.
I just want to add that it seems strange to me. If a person does not believe in God or organized religion then why would a House of worship threaten you? It would seem to me that "Church" or house of worship would have no meaning at all if you had no belief? So I would really like to know what the issue is.
DITTO!
What is the real issue here?
By the way, if you are offered a job with a Catholic, Baptist, or other medical facility with religious affiliation, will you refuse the job? What will you do if the hospital you work in has a chapel in it (a church inside the building where you will be working). Won't that be like working in a church?
that's NOT the issue!!!! I don't know if I mentioned it before, but I used to be a musician. Grew up in a family of church musicians, in fact, and have worked in four churches as a musician. in each instance, I asked if I had to share the beliefs of the church to be an employee- all said no. right after I left my last church job to take a hospital job (clinicals conflicted with choir practice), they hired a new minister who wanted all the musicians to share the belief system of the church. when I met him later, I told him it was a good thing we'd not worked together, as he would've had to fire me. He actually had a good laugh over that, and asked if he could pray for me, which was totally fine by me. He did not, however, try to convert me, and when he asked me to pray with him and I refused, he didn't take offense at all.
I chose not to attend certain schools, when offered music scholarships by them, because they required attendance at chapel services. I would be happy to work in a religiously-affiliated hospital, just like I worked in churches, as long as they didn't have a problem with my beliefs differing from those espoused by the institution. If they did, I wouldn't work there. There are countless places for me to provide excellent nursing care that won't require me to share their religious beliefs.
Need i point out that I'm entering the nursing profession, *not* a convent, or the priesthood? As for the point about not working at a hospital with a chapel, your argument is really illogical. Our hospital has a chapel. I asked someone from pastoral care if it was specifically intended for one religious organization over all others. He said that it was not- it's a place for people to worship in the way they see fit. A jewish family of one of our dying patients had asked me to find out for them, and I took them to the chapel myself.
I apologize to all of you if my initial post wasn't clear. I thought it was- that my problem is with the ceremony being religious in nature, and the school being a state institution. So often, I encounter people who simply stop listening when I make this argument...turning it into an 'us versus them' battle with christians and 'non-believers'.
Now, if you (not this specific poster, but anyone reading this thread) believe that the US government should legislate religion, then by all means, fight for that. It's your right, as a citizen, to pursue public office, and lobby your governmental representatives.
Just like it's *my* right to attend a pinning ceremony that is *not* a worship service.
Specializes in PICU, Nurse Educator, Clinical Research.
you certainly have a lot of issues. Why don't you just not go to the ceremony? Think of it like a wedding. Someone else is making the plans and you can decide to attend or not. Certainly easier on the psyche.
I agree that the ceremony should be for the students, but why let it ruin your last semester and your relationship with students/faculty? Just don't show.
I'm actually a pretty laid-back person, most of the time. I have a few soapbox issues- the main ones being cruelty, and church/state separation.
We've been told that our attendance is required. I'm going to get that clarified- if the consequence is that they withhold our diplomas, or don't send in our NCLEX-RN registration, I'll be calling the NCBON.
It's not ruining my relationships- if you look back at the thread, the main problem I had in the first place was the ludicrous attire. that issue is something all students agree upon. and, like i said, my program director respects me *because* I am outspoken, and an activist, when I see things I think are unjust. He thinks that quality will make me a great nurse.
Again I am not trying to tell anyone how to feel I am trying to undertsand what is so offensive or threatening?
It is not offensive or threatening; it is INAPPROPRIATE.
CCU NRS, this is not specifically directed at you, there were several other posters who seemed to leap to the conclusion that religion in this context is offensive or threatening; it was obvious to me that the OP wasn't approaching it that way.
Our society is inclusive of a lot of different types of people, religions, and ideas. When one way of thinking predominates, the ones who are continually told to shut up and go along with it eventually get fed up. I think the US is seeing a lot of "no longer willing to go along with it", which is uncomfortable for the people who are dominant as they feel their views are squashed when really the other groups just want to be heard for a change, or at ther very least not have someone else's stuff shoved down their necks.
Specializes in Clinical Research, Outpt Women's Health.
I didn't go to my graduation because I was frustrated/angry with our faculty. I felt they were not supportive, and played favorites, and all turned a blind eye to the truly nasty/inappropriate one. I was second in my class, and i sometimes wonder if I should have gone anyway.
However, that said it has made absolutely no difference in my life 11 years later! My husband did take me out for dinner/drinks/dancing instead and that was fun.
Your school sounds like it is stuck in the 1950's so try to change them, and if you can't, it wont matter to you a year from now (it will to the poor nurses who come after though).
I do think it is really ridiculous of your school. You did the work, you paid the tuition, and it is your ceremony for goodness sake!
Best of luck to you on your nursing future - I think you will probably be a leader someday.
I hope I have, as you requested, explained thoroughly what the issue is.
Simply put, I don't believe that your problem will be resolved without a court's intervention. And such an intervention is by no means guaranteed.
For public elementary schools, middle schools and high schools the issue has been resolved for some time. What you have described would almost certainly be found to be unconstitutional.
Unfortunately. (from your point of view), public universities and colleges even though public have long been considered fundamentally different from grade schools by the courts. Since their students are adults/older they aren't so likely to feel coerced into another's belief system. And in most cases attendance at graduation events is not considered mandatory.
On the otherhand you feel that your ceremony is mandatory---no participation, no evidence of program completion, therefore no Nursing Boards. You will be forced to say prayers which are sectarian. There is more than a passing relationship with the specific church people organizing the event and the school. These are examples of factors which might tip the balance in your favor legally. But who knows?...Even which District Court jurisdiction you file in can make a difference.
If you are serious about this, I am sorry to say that you will need an attorney. Because the legalities are murky, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for your school's administration to change willingly.
So it comes down to this: I know you don't like the way things are.....but just how strongly do you feel about it? How far are you willing to go?
For what it is worth, after reading your clarification of the issues, I have to agree that your college is out of line. I don't take issue with a ceremony being held in any type place of worship, it is after all just a building, but to have a religious service/hymns/etc. is crossing the line of separation of church and state. It amazes me that your school continues to do this.
I very much agree with rstewart's post: "Simply put, I don't believe that your problem will be resolved without a court's intervention. If you are serious about this, I am sorry to say that you will need an attorney. Because the legalities are murky, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for your school's administration to change willingly.
So it comes down to this: I know you don't like the way things are.....but just how strongly do you feel about it? How far are you willing to go?"
My advice from there is try to talk with the administration at your school regarding forcing its students to attend a religious service as a requirement to receive your diplomas, and send in your NCLEX-RN registration, if that indeed turns out to be the case. I wonder if the President of your college even realizes this is taking place?
If that doesn't help, then you may want to consider contacting an alumni of the school that has become an attorney and see if he would write the administration a letter explaining the possible legal consequences of their inappropriate requirement. Sometimes just a letter from an attorney is all that it takes. I doubt if your school wants to go through the negative publicity this could bring. Best wishes to you in getting this resolved.
Well, there is no such thing as separation of church and state, nor was there anything saying there should be (and this is coming from someone who is not religious at all).
We held our pinning ceremony in a church and were given little white Bibles. It wasn't a big deal.
You should just focus on graduating and being happy about that. The pinning ceremony is like high school graduation, it doesn't make a dimes worth of difference in the long run how you picked up your diploma.
Specializes in Vents, Telemetry, Home Care, Home infusion.
Hi all-
Our pinning ceremony is held in a church, and has pretty significant christian religious overtones, which I have a problem with; I think it's an inappropriate blurring of the line between church and state (this is a state-funded community college), and I've had a few students express discomfort with having the ceremony in this church. By the way- it's only held there for faculty preference; there's plenty of room on campus.
My main concern, though, is the attire for the ceremony.
May I offer a simple rationale for why your school may have the ceremony in the church beyond your perceived notion that its for faculty preference?
Many ADN programs I've been involved with compete with other programs for clinical and auditorium space, especially at graduation time. The nursing program is often the most expensive financial cost due to the need for low student/faculty preceptor ratios. Extra effort is put into keeping costs as low as possible, especially for a pinning ceremony that other programs do not have.
It is possible that other programs requested all available space on the date selected in the past....someone knew clergy a the church and site was offered for free to nurses due to their "good will". If the school is highly tradiional, chuch location just might have stuck for ease of use, location, parking...numerous reasons.
Ok, your class desires to change that. You've received good advice above.
Onto LOCATION planning. Do it within the next two weeks, as school events calander fills up quickly.
1. Often departments nursing secretary can fill you in on pinning ceremonies location in the past century (just kidding). Ask them who is resposible for booking school space for funcions, if you aren't already aware.
2. Classmates and you scout out locations that might hold same capacity as church location. Keep in mind weather, parking distance and refreshment needs. Determine which locations are not booked. Prioritize preference.
3. Write up desired ceremony outline. Determine costs involved. Use the '"NURSING PROCESS"
4. If your facility advisor is an ally, run the plan past them. If viewed as non-supportive, request meeting with Dean/Dept head. All class reps should attend.
5. Consider alternatives, what points your class may be willing to bend on in order to have different location.
6. If the school has dug in their heels, go to college president.
7. Allamerican girl offered last-ditch advice, if you want to go that far:
"If that doesn't help, then you may want to consider contacting an alumni of the school that has become an attorney and see if he would write the administration a letter explaining the possible legal consequences of their inappropriate requirement. Sometimes just a letter from an attorney is all that it takes. I doubt if your school wants to go through the negative publicity this could bring. Best wishes to you in getting this resolve."
rach_nc_03
372 Posts
as nurse_wannabe has pointed out, it's *not* because it's a christian church- it's because it's a *religious ceremony* for a *state institution*