Healthcare is NOT a basic human right.

[Asystole RN]

If one were to read the Constitution one would realize that the Constitution does not grant anyone freedoms, liberties, or rights. The Constitution only protects freedoms, liberties, and rights from transgressions on part of the government. A right is something that is inherent to the individual, comes from that individual, and is maintained by the individual. You are born with such rights like the right to speak freely, the only thing that can be done to that right is to have it infringed. No one can grant a right to another, only limit or impede the exercise of that right.

Healthcare is a human invention that does not exist in the natural environment. Only through the work of others and through the taking of resources from one party and giving to another does healthcare exist. You cannot force someone to give effort and resources to another and call that a right. In the absence of human intervention the individual would live their lives and succumb to the natural forces which would act upon their bodies.

Do I think we should provide preventative care and basic primary care? Sure. Do I think that we can? Maybe. Do I think that healthcare is a basic human right? Absolutely not.

[beckyv]

I hate to even post on this hot topic, but while people are on one hand complaining about the government stepping on toes and forcing us to "eat and drink" whatever you want cause the government doesn't have the right to infringe on that, while on the other hand want the government to provide care for disease that said choices have caused, it is such a contradiction.... How can we deem the government responsible for our health, and not take responsibility for it on our own. Do we really want the government ruling our eating choices, drinking choices, and all "health related" choices? That, IMO, is a direct contradiction to "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" thing, and not what the writers intended, given what they had worked so hard to free the US from.

[IsmeAmanda, LPN]

I am certainly against universal health care for many, many reasons. MOSTLY, because, when you do the research , you see that it is not working in other countries where the tax rate is astronomical. To call me not compassionate, uncaring and selfish is ridiculous. We simply do not have the money to pay for everyone's health care. I live in a small town with THOUSANDS of illegal Hispanics and they get free health care. THEY GET FREE HEALTHCARE AT THE ER!! They are never turned down. It is amazing, how I, as a school nurse am able to get recourses for things the underpriviledged students in our school need, such as glasses, dental care, etc. Obamacare was forced down our throats behind closed doors and even the Democrats did not know what they were passing. How awful is that? I remember Perlosi standing before the mic saying we need to pass it before we read it! And then to pay for it, the dollars were stolen from Social Security!!! We all need to wake up!

UK's VAT is not "astronomical" My husband is British and I lived there for 2 years. Most of them are actually happy with the system and it is working. People need to stop being willfully ignorant about things from other countries. Chances are, if you are a Repub in America - you're reading altered information. I once saw an "expose" from a Republican opinion that citizens of Britain dislike the healthcare system, but I bet if you went there and just asked some random people, say 100, the majority would overwhelmingly like the system when compared to the US.

I dont care who a person is. An illegal immigrant, a legal US citizen, a lesbian, an Arab - they deserve to be treated for their health conditions. How it's paid for best is for America to decide. But in my OPINION, no one should be turned away.

[mc3, ASN, RN]

A human right is whatever we decide it should be (as time passes -- subject to change).

As humans we can make of the world what ever we want as evidenced by the many varied definitions on human rights, law, religion, etc.[/quote

True, but if you want others to pay for it who don't agree, it becomes a different story.

mc3:nurse:

[JMBnurse]

I think when we invest in the health of our citizens, we are investing well in our future. I also work for an Insurance Co., managing the care of the Medicaid population in my state. All of my cases are children. Every day, I see the benefits of the care we provide and shudder at the thought of these children not having this care. This is our future. If we do not invest in their health now, I don't even want to think of the condition the adults will be in 30 yrs. No parent in the US should have to debate about whether or not they can afford to take their child to see a doctor or use that money for food or shelter. Most of us can't even imagine that, but it happens.

For those who have mentioned the insane cost of medical supplies, drugs and tests, this is not only due to corporate greed but it covers the cost for those who don't have insurance now. The plastic bedpan I am charged $800.00 for, covers the cost of the CT scan the homeless person with no insurance can't pay for. Universal Healthcare is supposed to help level that out.

There will always be those who abuse the system and we see that every day where I work. But, I don't believe children in this Country should suffer from lack of healthcare because their parents are uneducated, poor or unemployed.

So, yes, I believe that health care is a human right. Not a privilege reserved just for wealthy and upper middle class citizens with good jobs.

I am lucky enough to have a good job and I pay taxes. I would much prefer for my tax dollars to be invested in the healthcare of Americans rather than other things that are much more wasteful to me. My idea of the "other wasteful things" is probably for another thread, so I will just say, I would rather my tax dollars be spent on medical care for children than on more tanks.

[chuckster, ADN, BSN, RN, EMT-B]

There's no doubt that there is no Constitutionally protected right to health care. Rather, we as country have decided that health care is an individual responsibility best handled by what appears to be a free-market system. As a result, we pay much more for our care, often with poorer outcomes in the bargain. Also as a result, we consign many of our citizens to poor or no care, except in emergencies. This of course increases the cost of care for everyone. As a libertarian, I'm OK with this. As a humanitarian, I'm appalled.

Since we have made the decision to let the free-market largely rule health care - Obamacare notwithstanding (it is overwhelmingly a free-market program), I say let's do the job right. Make everyone truly responsible for their own well care and for expected and/or predictable care expenses. Make us true health consumers so we shop around for the best deal on well-child care the same way we can for Lasik. Restrict insurance and Medicare to covering catastrophic events (trauma, MI, CA, etc). Let everyone establish a real medical savings account, that rolls over each year and maybe pays interest. For the less affluent, we can subsidize and/or supplement their medical savings accounts. This is actually not my idea, it's been out there for a while. You can check it out here:How American Health Care Killed My Father - David Goldhill - The Atlantic

In my view, the argument about a right to health care is one that's encouraged by the plutocrats who actually control the country, no matter which party is nominally in charge. We've made our choice about how we want to handle health care and we should simply find the best way to implement that decision. Let's demand a true free-market in health care, not one controlled by either insurance companies and investment banks or the government.

[rubato, ASN, RN]

For those who have mentioned the insane cost of medical supplies, drugs and tests, this is not only due to corporate greed but it covers the cost for those who don't have insurance now. The plastic bedpan I am charged $800.00 for, covers the cost of the CT scan the homeless person with no insurance can't pay for. Universal Healthcare is supposed to help level that out.

Just so you know, homeless people don't actually get CT scans. If they venture into the ER, the get perfunctory care and set out on the sidewalk with nothing.

[JMBnurse]

Just so you know, homeless people don't actually get CT scans. If they venture into the ER, the get perfunctory care and set out on the sidewalk with nothing.

Where I live, they do. The hospital doesn't want to, but if a homeless person or anyone with no insurance comes into the ER with CVA or TIA symptoms or whatever, you better believe they get a CT and will be admitted. If they don't need it, you are correct. They will be given minimal treatment and discharged, but not if they are truly ill. Then comes the race to get them out of there as soon as possible. It's a liability to turn them away.

We don't want to pay for the primary care and then we end up footing the bill for chronic care for the rest of their life.

[libby11]

Health care is not a human right. Imagine (taking from someone else's example) you were born alone on an island... What right do you have to health care. You have the right to care for your health in whatever way you can manage, but it's not just going to be bestowed upon you because it is your right. In the cases where a society is fortunate enough to provide health care to all of its citizens, it is a privilege, not a right. [And the privilege could be taken away at anytime if resources become scare or services impossible to provide.] It is a luxury that is earned by an individual, a privilege granted for societal membership, or a charitable act that is accepted.

[Laurie52]

I think that in a just society that some form of universal health care is important and i am willing to put my money where my mouth is if the taxes used for this care are used wisely. i dont think that anyone who is involved in the healthcare industry would say that we are always good steward of the health care dollars. Along with this the people who use these resources have to be good stewards of them. Patients need to be partners in this venture and have to do their part to be healthy. Just because we can doesn't always mean we should. I have worked in critical care for many years and know that many useless things are done because the family want everything done. Sometimes the answer should be NO. Both Canada and Great Britian are much less litiginous (sp?) and understand that death awaits us all.

[37 °C]

If one were to read the Constitution one would realize that the Constitution does not grant anyone freedoms, liberties, or rights. The Constitution only protects freedoms, liberties, and rights from transgressions on part of the government.

"The privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended..."

A privilege that shall not be suspended is somehow different from a a right?

A right is something that is inherent to the individual, comes from that individual, and is maintained by the individual.

The title of your post indicates that you are going to discuss "basic human rights." Notice that you didn't say "basic human right" in your third sentence. You sad "right." Is a "basic human right" somehow different from an ordinary "human right"? Have you read any Thomas Hobbes lately?

You simply created an axiom out of thin air. You have decided that natural rights exist, but legal rights do not-by fiat. Or you decided that artificial things (such as your house and car?) don't exist.

You then complained that the discussion turned toward an argument over the Constitution, but your first point of discussion was a brief exegesis of the Constitution. Do you realize that you conflated human rights and constitutional rights?

You are born with such rights like the right to speak freely, the only thing that can be done to that right is to have it infringed. No one can grant a right to another, only limit or impede the exercise of that right.

You do have the right to remain silent.

Healthcare is a human invention that does not exist in the natural environment.

It's clear that your argument is a rhetorical one, best suited for a political philosophy class.

As others have said, a human right is what a group of humans decide is a right, as you yourself have done. If people in a society, whether by legislation, referendum, or simply the will of the populace deem something as a right, whether abstract or concrete, then it is a right. You can play with words all you want, philosophize to your hearts content, and conflate words and concepts, and it doesn't change that fact.

[37 °C]

I won't argue with your ethics-just your facts.

I am certainly against universal health care for many, many reasons. MOSTLY, because, when you do the research , you see that it is not working in other countries where the tax rate is astronomical.

As you know, a correlation is not a cause. If you had actually done research, you would have found the relevant fact that health care in the U.S. costs approximately double what it costs in most other industrialized nations, all of which have guaranteed access to health care. You may think that if your employer provides health insurance, that it's somehow free. There is no free lunch. The cost comes out of your compensation, and in the form of higher prices and/or lower profits, and thus, a lower return on investment.

Sadly, though our health care is twice as costly, by most objective measures it is inferior to what is available in most countries. Mock France all you like. That doesn't change the fact that it's healthcare system, overall, has better outcomes than ours does, and it's far cheaper per capita. It's also universal among its citizens.

Now would you care to list your "many, many" other reasons for opposing universal health care?

Obamacare was forced down our throats behind closed doors and even the Democrats did not know what they were passing.

No, it was passed by a democratically-elected legislature and signed into law by a democratically-elected president, who did what he said he would do regarding healthcare (plus or minus a public insurance option). The Republicans were given ample opportunity to participate. Some of their ideas were incorporated into the bill. The Republicans decided to drag the process out as long as possible (remember Senator Grassley's participation?), and in the end decided that they were simply going to torpedo the legislation, as well as all other Obama initiatives that they could sink.

Remember the public mandate, as "Romneycare" implemented it in Massachusetts? That was a Republican idea, originating with the Heritage Foundation. You don't have to take my word for it. Please look it up. As soon as Obama adopted that idea (and others), the Republicans suddenly turned against it.

In the end, many people opposed the ACA because they didn't think it went far enough. Mainly, they were disappointed by the lack of a public option. In other words, there was a clear majority of people who supported either the ACA as it was, or something stronger.

Don't get the idea that you speak for the majority.

And then to pay for it, the dollars were stolen from Social Security!!! We all need to wake up!

That is nonsense. Would you care to elaborate?

Medicare Advantage, having Medicare pay for private insurance plans, has been a financial bust. Those companies simply added overhead to what Medicare already offered. Does that make sense? A lot of people thought that Medicare, which is more efficient than any private insurance company, should simply have been extended.

* * * *

This is the gist of the ACA:

* elimination of lifetime caps

* elimination of the pre-existing condition exclusion

* creation of insurance exchanges

* inclusion of children over 18 on parent's insurance plan

* the legal framework necessary to implement legislation such as the ACA

Which of those things do you not like? Do you think the ACA should be even more like the system Romney got passed in Massachusetts, where almost everyone is now covered? (It's gone through a couple of overhauls, as the ACA surely will.)

At the risk of edging into ethics...

You seem to have a big issue with Hispanics, but do you think many millions ofAmerican children should have their healthcare coverage taken away? How about the tens of millions of working poor, some of whom have two jobs, but can't afford insurance coverage? Or how about those who have prior healthcare conditions, and simply could not get insurance?

[tashap18]

*reads over posts*.......thank God I live in Canada.