Before we get into it, I'm going into first year nursing... but I'm not some young kid. I'm 34, married with a family, studied philosophy in my early 20's, and lived well below the poverty line for my entire life. I'm saying this to avoid any fallacious arguments stemming from status or authority.
Now that's out of the way...
Why is health care not a right?
It's not a right because it requires others to fund your health care costs. You do not have a right to the money of other people.
What about those in need of health care?
We all love helping people, and that's important. Which is why there are countless organizations, churches, synagogues, companies, online charitable organizations, and other opportunities for your access.
If health care is a right, it's immoral.
A socialist view of health care requires the theft of citizens money through taxation to fund your health care needs. Just because I need health care does not mean I can take money of others, even when done through governmental force.
What's the difference between access to things like fire services, and health care services? They're all services aren't they?
The difference is that citizens who pay for services should receive services. Taxation pays for fire services, people are therefore owed that service.Consider, outside of municipalities where services aren't paid for, firefighting is volunteer, or paid for out of pocket. At least that's how it works in Canada...
When is health care a right then?
When you pay for it, however, it's a contractual right. Not a human right. I'm owed the service because I paid for it, that's it.
Who's responsible to take care of me then?
You are. Crazy idea right?
Are there exceptions?
Obviously, those with zero capacity to care for themselves.
I suspect heading into a Canadian nursing program with my views will be an interesting experience.
The thing is that people are going to receive care when they present to hospital with emergent issues. It would be unethical not to provide it. Low income people cannot afford insurance so what makes you think that they can afford to pay huge hospital bills. They simply will never pay the bill back in full, sure you can put them on a payment plan but they'll only be paying back a small amount of it. You say that you and your wife eat healthy, exercise ect. in order to avoid using health care. By providing universal access to GPs in Canada people are able to access a lot of preventative health care that prevents high cost hospital admissions. Prostate checks, breast screening, cervical cancer screening, immunisations, diabetes management, blood pressure management. It's not as simple as just saying that people should have to pay for these services, because low income people won't be able to and they will become a huge burden to the hospital system. Diabetes and heart disease are a huge cost to the healthcare system, it's essential that we manage these people as much as we can in the community in order to prevent as many hospital admissions as we can.
OP, being on the opposite of your political spectrum, I really admire your points and I will not start a debate. Seems like everyone here has done that. I mean, who would change their morals/views due to some anonymous stranger off internet forums? I wouldn't.
Reading through the comments, you have valid points and rebuttals of your stance in the health care field. Thank you for mentioning your background. After reading your well thought out comments, I would have written a whole wall of text disagreeing with all your points or would have reported for internet "trolling."
In that case my response is: you're well entitled to your opinion. You have yet to experience the workforce side of healthcare and the issues nurses have to go through because of politics. You are currently going through the Canadian healthcare system, so I cannot speak for them given I am from USA. When you do graduate, pass your licensure exam, and your stance in healthcare is still the same; I will whole hardly respect your beliefs. I would hope one day we can have a professional debate when that time comes.
You can believe whatever you want. This is America. But your perspective is not widely shared among nurses. For example, Provision 8.1 of the Nursing Code of Ethics is literally titled, "Health is a Universal Right." And provisions 9.3 and 9.4 integrate social justice concepts. So, you're really in the wrong profession if you're looking for people who agree with you.
I don't recommend you going into Canadian nursing as we do provide care on the basis that healthcare is a right for everyone. If you want to pick and choose who has the right to receive healthcare, then maybe consider countries that have same ideals as you do (many third world countries perhaps). If you do decide to go to Canada, find out if you and your family opt out of their public provincial healthcare insurance system because clearly it goes against your beliefs, and you would certainly be paying into something you might not benefit from immediately. It would be interesting to find out if your opinion would change after experiencing what Canada's social system is really like...
I wasn't going to say anything, I don't believe there is a point in arguing with someone who so vehemently agrees that health care is a privilege. OP, you very well may be a few years older than me and etc.
I rarely talk about my 2 bouts with childhood cancer and I don't consider this the playing sob stories game. I don't think you know and I hope you never do the feeling of worry of mounting medical bills. I hope you never have to experience that. I hope your kids never feel the way I felt- like a burden to my parents because of medical bills.
You're entitled to your opinion and I respect that. But these days, NOTHING in life is clear cut. Sometimes we get too busy shouting on our soap boxes to really listen to the plight of others. To me, THAT is what's wrong with today's world.
What about those people who will not or cannot pay back the money? I'm thinking about frequent-flier homeless drug addicts who basically live in the ED.
On the other hand, what about an extremely poor elderly man who suffers a stroke? He lives in a dilapidated old house, barely has enough to eat and has no one to take care of him.
What should happen in these cases?
It's ironic you should mention that ... I was thinking last night about my mom (whom died suddenly at age 52) and my uncle (also a sudden death at 64 yr's & 6 mo's of age).
Both worked from age 18 y.o. right on through to the very day of an untimely death.
All those years they both paid into the social security "kitty pool", but did not live to retirement age in order to collect. All their adult working lives they paid into a retirement system, yet did not get even $0.01 back.
In both of these cases I'm sure Uncle Sam was delighted to just keep all that money too (" Thank you very much!").
I read somewhere that social security had been strictly voluntary initially at inception, that is until LBJ came along and made it mandatory right after the end of the Kennedy administration. Now we have no choice, and if you die before you are able to collect then tough beans for you!
*
*
*
*
*
I work in an organization that deals mainly with the indigent patient population, and most have free health benefits via AHCCCS (Arizona Health Care Cost Containment System Administration - Arizona's Medicaid Agency).
As a telephone triage nurse one thing that is very time consuming is when a patient calls outside of business hours for Rx refills - which they are not supposed to do.
Sometimes unforeseen emergencies happen (a bottle of insulin slipped out of an arthritic hand and shattered on the floor) and the on call provider has to be contacted. However there is an abuse of the system I have seen quite a lot that irritates me: patients, or parents of patients will call outside of usual business hours to ask for Rx's for common OTC medications so it is free. Generic apap can be as low as $2.00 - of course I realize that some people might not have $2.00, however some of them do have it but don't feel they should have to pay for it.
In this mind set a mistaken belief forms - because they are CAN get an OTC med for free if it is Rx'd then it is their "right" to do so. "Why should I pay for it if I can get it for free?" is something I've had quite a few tell me as the rationale for calling the telephone triage nurse line outside of normal business hours for this very thing. I am not in a position to correct this entitled belief system, that it is NOT free - someone (tax payers) are covering the cost, and it doesn't just magically cost nothing.
The problem is it's NOT free - I can't help but think in the privacy of my mind
"Someone is paying for it - even if it's not you".
Correct, I am making a truth claim, and I thought my argument was clear.
It's as follows:
1) Fundamental human rights are not dependent on the actions of others.
2) Health care is dependent on the actions of others.
3) Therefore, health care is not a fundamental human right.
If you agree with the first two premises, the conclusion logically follows.
I don't agree that #1 and #2 are true. Therefore, your conclusion does NOT logically follow.
Oh, and it is bizarre that you think coming to the US is the answer and that US healthcare is great. I suggest you spend more time learning about life in the US and about our healthcare system. You are going to be in for a very rude awakening if you are able to come here. We don't need people like you.
Pharmaceutical companies haven't produced much in terms of true innovation lately. That is why they buying up biotech companies. The biotech center of the world is Israel.
I don't recommend you going into Canadian nursing as we do provide care on the basis that healthcare is a right for everyone. If you want to pick and choose who has the right to receive healthcare, then maybe consider countries that have same ideals as you do (many third world countries perhaps). If you do decide to go to Canada, find out if you and your family opt out of their public provincial healthcare insurance system because clearly it goes against your beliefs, and you would certainly be paying into something you might not benefit from immediately. It would be interesting to find out if your opinion would change after experiencing what Canada's social system is really like...
He lives in Ontario and happily admits to using provincial healthcare, collecting child tax credits, etc, because he's paid in. He also claims to have lived "below the poverty line" for most of his life.
He fails to understand that we've all been subsidizing his family by paying our share of taxes.
I'm aware of the tuition costs. This is why I said earlier, it's hard being a Canadian libertarian. Canadian socialist values go against my nature. However, I always try my best to not take advantage of this system, and live as free from it as possible.
Thanks for the good luck wishes, I'm sure I'll need it.
Is there a reason why you want to study in Canada that badly? To be honest I don't recommend studying in Canada if you plan on eventually moving to the states. The transition is not as easy as you would think. The difference in healthcare also means quite a difference in curriculum as well. (I studied in USA and moved to Canada to practice as an RN, and needed about a year or more to adapt my healthcare practice to their system). If you lived below the poverty line, most Canadian nurses and many professionals paid for your family to at least get the healthcare, child fees, etc. Is it a right for your family to get the current benefits then as it is now?? If healthcare is not a right, why would be supporting families below the poverty line a right?? What is the difference between housing, food security and a person's healthcare?? If you are that adamant about rights then maybe you should live in a country where those things truly apply, and see for yourself if it works.
I read somewhere that social security had been strictly voluntary initially at inception, that is until LBJ came along and made it mandatory right after the end of the Kennedy administration. Now we have no choice, and if you die before you are able to collect then tough beans for you!
Did you by any chance read that in an email you got??
jennylee321
412 Posts
The thing is that people are going to receive care when they present to hospital with emergent issues. It would be unethical not to provide it. Low income people cannot afford insurance so what makes you think that they can afford to pay huge hospital bills. They simply will never pay the bill back in full, sure you can put them on a payment plan but they'll only be paying back a small amount of it. You say that you and your wife eat healthy, exercise ect. in order to avoid using health care. By providing universal access to GPs in Canada people are able to access a lot of preventative health care that prevents high cost hospital admissions. Prostate checks, breast screening, cervical cancer screening, immunisations, diabetes management, blood pressure management. It's not as simple as just saying that people should have to pay for these services, because low income people won't be able to and they will become a huge burden to the hospital system. Diabetes and heart disease are a huge cost to the healthcare system, it's essential that we manage these people as much as we can in the community in order to prevent as many hospital admissions as we can.