Before we get into it, I'm going into first year nursing... but I'm not some young kid. I'm 34, married with a family, studied philosophy in my early 20's, and lived well below the poverty line for my entire life. I'm saying this to avoid any fallacious arguments stemming from status or authority.
Now that's out of the way...
Why is health care not a right?
It's not a right because it requires others to fund your health care costs. You do not have a right to the money of other people.
What about those in need of health care?
We all love helping people, and that's important. Which is why there are countless organizations, churches, synagogues, companies, online charitable organizations, and other opportunities for your access.
If health care is a right, it's immoral.
A socialist view of health care requires the theft of citizens money through taxation to fund your health care needs. Just because I need health care does not mean I can take money of others, even when done through governmental force.
What's the difference between access to things like fire services, and health care services? They're all services aren't they?
The difference is that citizens who pay for services should receive services. Taxation pays for fire services, people are therefore owed that service.Consider, outside of municipalities where services aren't paid for, firefighting is volunteer, or paid for out of pocket. At least that's how it works in Canada...
When is health care a right then?
When you pay for it, however, it's a contractual right. Not a human right. I'm owed the service because I paid for it, that's it.
Who's responsible to take care of me then?
You are. Crazy idea right?
Are there exceptions?
Obviously, those with zero capacity to care for themselves.
I suspect heading into a Canadian nursing program with my views will be an interesting experience.
Why are you even wasting your time on this site? It's not like you're going to change any of our minds, and you've made it clear that nothing anyone else says is going to sway you. Good luck with your nursing career.
Ummm, well, I don't view differing views as a bad thing. Simply because some on here disagree with my views in no way means I can't learn anything from the site, are you actually suggesting that?
I would think nurses come from all walks of life, and political views.
Before we get into it, I'm going into first year nursing... but I'm not some young kid. I'm 34, married with a family, studied philosophy in my early 20's, and lived well below the poverty line for my entire life. I'm saying this to avoid any fallacious arguments stemming from status or authority.
Now that's out of the way...
Why is health care not a right?
It's not a right, because it requires others to fund your health care costs. You do not have a right to the money of other people.
A strange, but interesting take. Does it apply to education? Does a poor child have a right to an education in your world even if his parent pay no taxes?
What about those in need of health care?
We all love helping people, and that's important. Which is why there are countless organizations, churches, synagogues, companies, online charitable organizations, and other opportunities for you access.
Actually, we don't all love helping people. Clearly charities can't cover certain costs,
If health care is a right, it's immoral.
A socialist view of health care requires the theft of citizens money through taxation to fund your health care needs. Just because I need health care does not mean I can take money of others, even when done through governmental force.
While you may not like paying taxes, calling them "theft", is just silly. Are there any cases in which a tax is not theft? Roads? Education?
What's the difference between access to things like fire services, and health care services? They're all services aren't they?
The difference is that citizens who pay for services, should receive services. Taxation pays for fire services, people are therefore owed that service.Consider, outside of municipalities where services aren't payed for, firefighting is volunteer, or payed for out of pocket. At least that's how it works in Canada...
The family down the road has no money, pays no taxes. Are they entitled to fire services? If one of them is being beaten, are they entitled to police protection? They didn't pay...
About paying for fire services out of pocket: How does that work? Do they swipe your card before putting water on the flames? How do you pay if you ran out in your bathrobe, and your wallet is inside?
When is health care a right then?
When you pay for it, however, it's a contractual right. Not a human right. I'm owed the service because I payed for it, that's it.
Who's responsible to take care of me then?
You are. Crazy idea right?
Are there exceptions?
Obviously, those with zero capacity to care for themselves.
I suspect heading into a Canadian nursing program with my views will be an interesting experience.
How exactly are you going to pay the full cost of your program? Can they figure it out for you? I know you aren't going to steal money from others and accept a subsidy.
Also curious- Your argument is based on your personal definition of the word "right". So, for the sake of argument, let's say that's a great definition. What do you do with the indigent person who shows up to the ER in respiratory distress? They have no right to health care. So- what do you do?
How exactly are you going to pay the full cost of your program? Can they figure it out for you? I know you aren't going to steal money from others and accept a subsidy.
Also curious- Your argument is based on your personal definition of the word "right". So, for the sake of argument, let's say that's a great definition. What do you do with the indigent person who shows up to the ER in respiratory distress? They have no right to health care. So- what do you do?
I've explained this several times throughout the thread, people should get service, they should also be billed after the service.
My point was that there is always exceptions. I just don't think it should be the rule is all. Yes, it is a right established by Canadian law. I've stated many times it's a positive right, it's just not a fundamental human right.
Well, I pay what is required of me through taxation. That doesn't mean I don't think that should change though. I'm a free market capitalist.
Getting rich in Canada or most other countries is completely dependent on the existence of a well functioning society, which is maintained through a governmental structure. No governmental structure=no ability to get rich, in fact money literally doesn't exist without a government and the society it manages.
So to your question of why a rich person has to pay into universal healthcare coverage, it's because without a generally healthy society they can't get rich, nobody gets rich off of a workforce that is chronically unable to work due to lack of healthcare. So the more you benefit from a society, the more you have to contribute to maintaining that society, to say someone should be able to benefit from the existence of a well managed society but not have to contribute to the cost of maintaining that society relative to how much they are benefitting is essentially saying they should be able to steal from that society, which is completely contrary to libertarian ideals.
Well, something can also be for profit and not a true free market, I would make a distinction there. As for an alternate system that is two tier. I would not be against a true two tier system. That would at least allow others to choose to pay for their own if they so desire. Currently the province I'm in doesn't allow for privatized health care, to cover care that's already covered publicly. In fact, the majority of Canada that's the case.
There are actually a large number of upscale, "boutique" hospitals and clinics in Ontario that Canadians can pay extra for if they so desire to receive care above the level of basic, required care. Maybe you could clarify?
May I ask, do you find the pay to be better though? The taxation has to be less. In Canada, you can be taxed in Ontario almost 50%.
The tax burden in the US is actually higher than that of Canada and for that we don't even get health coverage included, when you include the cost of healthcare our tax burden is 1/3 higher than that of Canada.
I'm a free market capitalist... are you saying I can't be a nurse and a free market capitalist?
You can believe whatever you want. This is America. But your perspective is not widely shared among nurses. For example, Provision 8.1 of the Nursing Code of Ethics is literally titled, "Health is a Universal Right." And provisions 9.3 and 9.4 integrate social justice concepts. So, you're really in the wrong profession if you're looking for people who agree with you.
There are actually a large number of upscale, "boutique" hospitals and clinics in Ontario that Canadians can pay extra for if they so desire to receive care above the level of basic, required care. Maybe you could clarify?
It's my understanding private clinics cannot offer services already provided by OHIP. This is to prevent queue jumping. Services on top of OHIP are fine, just not the same services.
"Speaking on behalf of Ontario Health Minister George Smitherman, press secretary David Spencer said there is no acceptance, "passive or otherwise," of clinics that charge for access to insured services."
You can believe whatever you want. This is America. But your perspective is not widely shared among nurses. For example, Provision 8.1 of the Nursing Code of Ethics is literally titled, "Health is a Universal Right." And provisions 9.3 and 9.4 integrate social justice concepts. So, you're really in the wrong profession if you're looking for people who agree with you.
I said it's not a fundamental human right, it's a positive right... which is a form of contractual right. There's a difference.
I'm not looking for people to agree with me. People may or may not agree with me, and that's okay. :)
I have no problem with that, because I benefit from those things, schools, roads, etc. What do I benefit from Jane getting a hit replacement?
I stated earlier, I have a friend who is wealthy enough to pay for all the privatized health care he wants for two lifetimes. Why can't he opt out of taxation in regards to health care?
And I how do I benefit by your kids going to school for free?
Tetra
131 Posts
Ummm, well, I don't view differing views as a bad thing. Simply because some on here disagree with my views in no way means I can't learn anything from the site, are you actually suggesting that?
I would think nurses come from all walks of life, and political views.