Before we get into it, I'm going into first year nursing... but I'm not some young kid. I'm 34, married with a family, studied philosophy in my early 20's, and lived well below the poverty line for my entire life. I'm saying this to avoid any fallacious arguments stemming from status or authority.
Now that's out of the way...
Why is health care not a right?
It's not a right because it requires others to fund your health care costs. You do not have a right to the money of other people.
What about those in need of health care?
We all love helping people, and that's important. Which is why there are countless organizations, churches, synagogues, companies, online charitable organizations, and other opportunities for your access.
If health care is a right, it's immoral.
A socialist view of health care requires the theft of citizens money through taxation to fund your health care needs. Just because I need health care does not mean I can take money of others, even when done through governmental force.
What's the difference between access to things like fire services, and health care services? They're all services aren't they?
The difference is that citizens who pay for services should receive services. Taxation pays for fire services, people are therefore owed that service.Consider, outside of municipalities where services aren't paid for, firefighting is volunteer, or paid for out of pocket. At least that's how it works in Canada...
When is health care a right then?
When you pay for it, however, it's a contractual right. Not a human right. I'm owed the service because I paid for it, that's it.
Who's responsible to take care of me then?
You are. Crazy idea right?
Are there exceptions?
Obviously, those with zero capacity to care for themselves.
I suspect heading into a Canadian nursing program with my views will be an interesting experience.
The OP also likes Ayn Rand. Ayn Rand believed in Objectivism - "the virtue of selfishness." She believed no one ever does anything purely out of the goodness of their heart and that this is a good thing. Basically, as with the OP, everything boils down to money, which is a very disturbing world view, IMO.
During the 2008 economic downturn, some Objectivists got press by saying Ayn Rand was right and that all the smart people were going to go away, as in Atlas Shrugged. Some business people then asked if they could have their clients as they would be happy to do the work left behind by these geniuses!
Reducing morality to payment is well, sad. I don't live my entire life based on money or on receiving "payment" for everything. And I'm not aware of any moral system (as opposed to philosophy) that advocates this. Societies that function solely on this level - "what's in it for me" - are invariably corrupt and third world. I'm not aware of hordes of people from the USA and Canada clamoring to move to 3rd world countries. However, people from those countries are literally willing to die in order to move here.
Here is an interesting analysis of Ayn Rand's "philosophy" and much of it also pertains to libertarianism.
The coup in 2009 unleashed the voracity of the groups with real power in this country. It gave them free reins to take over everything. They started to reform the Constitution and many laws — the ZEDE comes in this context — and they made the Constitution into a tool for them to get rich.
As part of this process, the Honduran government passed a law in 2013 that created autonomous free-trade zones that are governed by corporations instead of the countries in which they exist. So what was the outcome? Writer Edwin Lyngar described vacationing in Honduras in 2015, an experience that turned him from Ayn Rand supporter to Ayn Rand debunker. In his words:
The greatest examples of libertarianism in action are the hundreds of men, women and children standing alongside the roads all over Honduras. The government won't fix the roads, so these desperate entrepreneurs fill in potholes with shovels of dirt or debris. They then stand next to the filled-in pothole soliciting tips from grateful motorists. That is the wet dream of libertarian private sector innovation.
He described the living conditions this way:
On the mainland, there are two kinds of neighborhoods, slums that seem to go on forever and middle-class neighborhoods where every house is its own citadel. In San Pedro Sula, most houses are surrounded by high stone walls topped with either concertina wire or electric fence at the top. As I strolled past these castle-like fortifications, all I could think about was how great this city would be during a zombie apocalypse.
Without collective effort, large infrastructure projects like road construction and repair languish. A resident pointed out a place for a new airport that could be the biggest in Central America, if only it could get built, but there is no private sector upside.â€
A trip to a local pizzeria was described this way:
We walked through the gated walls and past a man in casual slacks with a pistol belt slung haphazardly around his waist. Welcome to an Ayn Rand libertarian paradise, where your extra-large pepperoni pizza must also have an armed guard.
This is the inevitable outcome of unbridled self-interest set loose in unregulated markets."
Specializes in Critical care, tele, Medical-Surgical.
My former neighbor and friend was fortunate and had bad luck.
We both attended a private LVN school decades ago. She worked as an LVN night charge nurse in a nursing home.
(I worked and kept going back to school) We are both 73 now.
When she was 62 she was diagnosed with cancer. Treatment left her too sick to work so she was laid off. Because she had been diagnosed the only health insurance policies she could afford cost more per year than her full time income. She used COBRA to continue her employer health insurance, paying the entire amount. When working she paid 1/2.
Her COBRA insurance was $750.00 a month. Her early Social Security was @1,200.00 a month. She had co-pays and prescription costs for her treatment.
Thankfully her house was paid for and she had a savings account.
Because she had bills and expenses more than the $450.00 left after paying for insurance she withdrew money from the bank. When she felt well enough she collected bottles and cans to recycle until a police officer told her she may not remove them from peoples trash.
So a neighbor had us save them to give her. She would not take a handout.
When she was no longer too sick to function most days she tried to return to work, but couldn't get hired. Maybe because a cancer survivor employee raises the cost to all insured by the employer.
She had almost no savings. She was fortunate that her house was worth a lot. She was able to sell it and buy a condo in the desert for less than she got for her house. Because she is 65 she now has Medicare. The Medicare premium is about $100.00 a month leaving her enough from Social Security to live.
What if she had a mortgage or paid rent. What if she were younger and not qualified for Medicare?
What is she was left with no savings and no COBRA or Medicare?
If you do not believe health care should be for all you will not fair well here in the United States. Emergency rooms are full of people who cannot pay (and yes some of them actually cannot scrape up the money to pay anything). For example, they may have no electricity to keep their refridgerators running to keep their insulin in which is why they are at the emergency room because they cannot be turned away. Out of curiosity, why America?
Specializes in Critical care, tele, Medical-Surgical.
Proud Socialist, here!!!!
I believe in the collective good, which is why I believe in paying my fair share of taxes so that we can all enjoy the benefits of paved roads (even when Canadians visit the US), public education, public transportation, government-back student loans, libraries, etc.
And really, the discussion doesn't require a long, drawn-out, boring, semi-philosophical back and forth. It just boils down to one simple question: Do you believe in the collective good? The answer to that question explains everything that follows.
I said it's not a fundamental human right, it's a positive right... which is a form of contractual right. There's a difference.
I'm not looking for people to agree with me. People may or may not agree with me, and that's okay. :)
Take your third tier philosophical ability and attend some crap law school so your malpractice is limited to paper. Nursing doesn't want you. And news flash, it's difficult being a libertarian anywhere because it's nothing more than a thought experiment that twenty something year olds toy around with during those exploratory years - but you're pushing 40, nice.
May your nursing program be full of "lefties" who give a **** about people.
OP, someone earlier in the thread wrote that you truly have no idea how interdependent you are on the resources and systems of others, which have allowed you to be where you are today - and I can't agree more. I'm getting so tired of seeing this 101-level Ayn Rand libertarian B.S. and have watched it blossom into full-fledged fascism in the US, and it's happening in Canada too. This isn't a game or a leisurely philosophical argument, it has real and dangerous consequences. It's also pretty obvious to me how your attitudes will translate into sub-par care for certain patients.
OP, someone earlier in the thread wrote that you truly have no idea how interdependent you are on the resources and systems of others, which have allowed you to be where you are today - and I can't agree more. I'm getting so tired of seeing this 101-level Ayn Rand libertarian B.S. and have watched it blossom into full-fledged fascism in the US, and it's happening in Canada too. This isn't a game or a leisurely philosophical argument, it has real and dangerous consequences. It's also pretty obvious to me how your attitudes will translate into sub-par care for certain patients.
I am volunteering at a free clinic while in school. One of our goals is to help those who cannot afford medications. In America, if you do not have insurance medications can without exaggerating cost more than your car payment or mortgage. I know of three widows who were homemakers and "did not pay into the system" and could not afford their medications if we had not searched for prescription drug assistance. If they asked the OP for help finding financial assistance would be scold them about not paying in? Would he actually assist them (and do so without judgement or scolding) in getting financial assistance for these medications or would it be a half hearted (if any attempt) to assist them?
When I was 25 years old I was a married, stay at home mom of two kids ages 4 and 1, attending university that was being paid for through grants, scholarships, and government backed student loans. In my last semester my husband revealed he had been having affairs pretty much our entire marriage (just shy of 7 years) and he was leaving. Not only did he leave, within six months I was diagnosed with early stage cervical cancer and required a radical hysterectomy. Fortunately for me, the state we lived in had a one year mandatory separation before a divorce can be granted and if you are diagnosed with an illness that is life threatening divorces cannot be granted (this prevents you from being left without insurance if you are insured under your spiuse's policy). I was still covered at 100% under Tricare for my surgery and subsequent treatment. Had I not been I would have either had to come up with nearly $200,000 for treatment or gone on Medicaid and hope to be treated before the cancer had advanced. But seeing as how I "hadn't paid into the system" yet, under the OP's line of thinking that's my own problem. So I guess, if that had been the case, had my cancer advanced and I ended up dying from cancer that went untreated my kids would have just been SOL without their mother because their dad didn't want them and wasn't taking them. Too bad for my kids though right? Guess mom should have paid into the system. Guess that bill the state is on the hook for raising them for at that point is much cheaper. Even if a bill had been sent to me, how in God's name was I ever going to pay that back and be able to support myself and my kids? Easy- IT WOULDNT HAVE BEEN POSSIBLE. Now, because I had treatment, I went on to finish not only my first degree but two masters degrees in education and I'm working on my BSN and I am a contributing member of society who served as a public school teacher for ten years and will now serve be public as a nurse for the rest of my working years.
Things are not always black and white. Nursing requires critical thinking and sometimes it isn't critical thinking about immediate treatment but the long term social and emotional effects of your patient and the impact to their family. It is not our job to determine if someone is worthy of care because of their finances. Loiking at the bigger picture may end up costing our society less in the long run.
He lives in Ontario and happily admits to using provincial healthcare, collecting child tax credits, etc, because he's paid in. He also claims to have lived "below the poverty line" for most of his life.
He fails to understand that we've all been subsidizing his family by paying our share of taxes.
I don't have the time or the energy to waste tallying up who's paying for what or who deserves what. A healthy community and society is best for everyone. I'm happy to help those who don't have as much as me. We supposedly live in a civilized country and world, and helping others comes naturally to most humans. I don't call that socialist or communist or whatever. It's called HUMANE.
Tetra-I think you should forget about nursing and go into accounting, where you can keep track of what's owed and who gets what money. Money seems to be so important to you, and I think you'd be in your glory.
Take your third tier philosophical ability and attend some crap law school so your malpractice is limited to paper. Nursing doesn't want you. And news flash, it's difficult being a libertarian anywhere because it's nothing more than a thought experiment that twenty something year olds toy around with during those exploratory years - but you're pushing 40, nice.
May your nursing program be full of "lefties" who give a **** about people.
Haha. Is this supposed to be an argument?
Usually people are a political view because they believe that view to be morally superior. I believe the left to be regressive, and morally bankrupt... so I hope there aren't many.
shibaowner, MSN, RN, NP
3 Articles; 583 Posts
The OP also likes Ayn Rand. Ayn Rand believed in Objectivism - "the virtue of selfishness." She believed no one ever does anything purely out of the goodness of their heart and that this is a good thing. Basically, as with the OP, everything boils down to money, which is a very disturbing world view, IMO.
During the 2008 economic downturn, some Objectivists got press by saying Ayn Rand was right and that all the smart people were going to go away, as in Atlas Shrugged. Some business people then asked if they could have their clients as they would be happy to do the work left behind by these geniuses!
Reducing morality to payment is well, sad. I don't live my entire life based on money or on receiving "payment" for everything. And I'm not aware of any moral system (as opposed to philosophy) that advocates this. Societies that function solely on this level - "what's in it for me" - are invariably corrupt and third world. I'm not aware of hordes of people from the USA and Canada clamoring to move to 3rd world countries. However, people from those countries are literally willing to die in order to move here.
Here is an interesting analysis of Ayn Rand's "philosophy" and much of it also pertains to libertarianism.
Column: This is what happens when you take Ayn Rand seriously | PBS NewsHour
"In 2009, Honduras experienced a coup d'état when the Honduran Army ousted President Manuel Zelaya on orders from the Honduran Supreme Court. What followed was succinctly summarized by Honduran attorney Oscar Cruz:
As part of this process, the Honduran government passed a law in 2013 that created autonomous free-trade zones that are governed by corporations instead of the countries in which they exist. So what was the outcome? Writer Edwin Lyngar described vacationing in Honduras in 2015, an experience that turned him from Ayn Rand supporter to Ayn Rand debunker. In his words:
He described the living conditions this way:
Without collective effort, large infrastructure projects like road construction and repair languish. A resident pointed out a place for a new airport that could be the biggest in Central America, if only it could get built, but there is no private sector upside.â€
A trip to a local pizzeria was described this way:
This is the inevitable outcome of unbridled self-interest set loose in unregulated markets."