Before we get into it, I'm going into first year nursing... but I'm not some young kid. I'm 34, married with a family, studied philosophy in my early 20's, and lived well below the poverty line for my entire life. I'm saying this to avoid any fallacious arguments stemming from status or authority.
Now that's out of the way...
Why is health care not a right?
It's not a right because it requires others to fund your health care costs. You do not have a right to the money of other people.
What about those in need of health care?
We all love helping people, and that's important. Which is why there are countless organizations, churches, synagogues, companies, online charitable organizations, and other opportunities for your access.
If health care is a right, it's immoral.
A socialist view of health care requires the theft of citizens money through taxation to fund your health care needs. Just because I need health care does not mean I can take money of others, even when done through governmental force.
What's the difference between access to things like fire services, and health care services? They're all services aren't they?
The difference is that citizens who pay for services should receive services. Taxation pays for fire services, people are therefore owed that service.Consider, outside of municipalities where services aren't paid for, firefighting is volunteer, or paid for out of pocket. At least that's how it works in Canada...
When is health care a right then?
When you pay for it, however, it's a contractual right. Not a human right. I'm owed the service because I paid for it, that's it.
Who's responsible to take care of me then?
You are. Crazy idea right?
Are there exceptions?
Obviously, those with zero capacity to care for themselves.
I suspect heading into a Canadian nursing program with my views will be an interesting experience.
What is quite interesting is that the OP admits he has lived "well below the poverty line" for most of his life. Why? That's pretty sad. It's also the sign of a failed Libertarian. I mean, if he was a successful Libertarian, he'd be rolling in dough! I'm a social liberal and starting at the age of 20, financially self-sufficient and making excellent money w/o a college degree. By 23 years old, I was making the equivalent of $60,000 today and put myself through college. By age 33, I was making the equivalent of $130,000 today, and my income only went up from there. (My previous career was in business). He is a hypocrite and a failure by his own standards. Happy to be on the dole, but railing against other poor people. Please, please, do not come to the USA!
He lives in Ontario and happily admits to using provincial healthcare, collecting child tax credits, etc, because he's paid in. He also claims to have lived "below the poverty line" for most of his life.
He fails to understand that we've all been subsidizing his family by paying our share of taxes.
There are very few Canadian's who aren't being socialized one way or another in some fashion.
Your entire argument continues to be that Canadian's since being subsidized have no right to critique the very system their in... this is nonsense.
I'm sure you'll just say it again at some point though.
Tetra, your initial question was if healthcare is a right, and it's broadly considered a right as part of a society, this is evidenced by the fact that at least at some level, every single developed country has defined this right through law. It seems you're trying to argue that because it's a right conferred by society for those in the society and not a "human right", which I think you're confusing with a natural right, that it's therefore not a right at all. This is like if someone asked if a truck is a type of vehicle, and someone said that yes, it is a type of vehicle, then you argued that no, a car is a type of vehicle so a truck therefore is not.
A question just as valid as whether healthcare is a right is whether there is truly any "right" to expecting all of the benefits of society for yourself, without having to contribute to that system even though it may end up benefiting someone else rather than just yourself. You complain about whether someone's money should go to help fund healthcare, potentially for someone else, but I think you're missing that without a functional, and healthy, society there is no money for you to have in the first place.
What is quite interesting is that the OP admits he has lived "well below the poverty line" for most of his life. Why? That's pretty sad. It's also the sign of a failed Libertarian. I mean, if he was a successful Libertarian, he'd be rolling in dough! I'm a social liberal and starting at the age of 20, financially self-sufficient and making excellent money w/o a college degree. By 23 years old, I was making the equivalent of $60,000 today and put myself through college. By age 33, I was making the equivalent of $130,000 today, and my income only went up from there. (My previous career was in business). He is a hypocrite and a failure by his own standards. Happy to be on the dole, but railing against other poor people. Please, please, do not come to the USA!
Ahhh yes, that classic judgmental trait that makes a great nurse. My God, if these are the assumptions you make about a complete stranger on the internet, I'd hate to be one of your patients. lol
I'm simply going to say here, you don't really know me.
The bigger question though is if you're theory is correct, is it really going to save you money to deny people healthcare. Withholding proper treatments because we don't want 'wealth redistribution' only results in much more expensive treatments later on, unless we're willing to really follow through with that concept and just euthanize people who can't afford care. Otherwise all your doing is volunteering to pay far more than we need to for these people's healthcare. You appear opposed to euthanizing people and seem to be willing to pay for the care for "those who can't care for themselves", but you given as an example paying for someone's broken hip, which means to avoid paying around $25,000 to fix the hip, you'd rather pay the $80,000 a year to put them into a nurse home, that makes no sense.
Tetra, your initial question was if healthcare is a right, and it's broadly considered a right as part of a society, this is evidenced by the fact that at least at some level, every single developed country has defined this right through law. It seems you're trying to argue that because it's a right conferred by society for those in the society and not a "human right", which I think you're confusing with a natural right, that it's therefore not a right at all. This is like if someone asked if a truck is a type of vehicle, and someone said that yes, it is a type of vehicle, then you argued that no, a car is a type of vehicle so a truck therefore is not.
I get what you're saying. I've agreed it's a right, just not a natural right (as you have put it). It's what is known as a positive right. I've also maintained this throughout the thread.
A question just as valid as whether healthcare is a right is whether there is truly any "right" to expecting all of the benefits of society for yourself, without having to contribute to that system even though it may end up benefiting someone else rather than just yourself. You complain about whether someone's money should go to help fund healthcare, potentially for someone else, but I think you're missing that without a functional, and healthy, society there is no money for you to have in the first place.
Maybe there is a misunderstanding here... I have no issues if 10 people want to get together and decide to pay for health care for themselves by pooling their funds. I take issue when 10 people get together to say that the funds of 15 people is rightfully theirs.
People seem to get hung up on the fact I'm Canadian, so that somehow I can't complain about the Canadian system. That's silly. I realize I'm Canadian, and I also get benefits... as every Canadian does. So I work and pay into the system, like many others. However, that doesn't mean I have to agree that what we are doing is right. I vote for the people I wish to support, and hope for future change.
This forum is hilarious though, I literally no nothing about nursing, I'm 1 week in... One of our classes was on cultural diversity, and inclusivity. It was fantastic actually.
The irony is how I've been treated by many on this forum who apparently know more than me. I'm not upset, it's just funny. The intolerance is strong with this group:
"Don't get into nursing."
"Don't come to the USA"
"happy to be on the doll"
"we don't need people like you."
Should I write everything that's been said about me here? I could go on...
I get what you're saying. I've agreed it's a right, just not a natural right (as you have put it). It's what is known as a positive right. I've also maintained this throughout the thread.
Maybe there is a misunderstanding here... I have no issues if 10 people want to get together and decide to pay for health care for themselves by pooling their funds. I take issue when 10 people get together to say that the funds of 15 people is rightfully theirs.
People seem to get hung up on the fact I'm Canadian, so that somehow I can't complain about the Canadian system. That's silly. I realize I'm Canadian, and I also get benefits... as every Canadian does. So I work and pay into the system, like many others. However, that doesn't mean I have to agree that what we are doing is right. I vote for the people I wish to support, and hope for future change.
(Bolding mine) I'm not sure how you see that as any different than how it works in Canada, basically 36 million people have gotten together and decided to pool their funds, there aren't people who have never paid into the system in one way or another who are utilizing the system (except for babies and children).
OP, being on the opposite of your political spectrum, I really admire your points and I will not start a debate. Seems like everyone here has done that. I mean, who would change their morals/views due to some anonymous stranger off internet forums? I wouldn't.
Reading through the comments, you have valid points and rebuttals of your stance in the health care field. Thank you for mentioning your background. After reading your well thought out comments, I would have written a whole wall of text disagreeing with all your points or would have reported for internet "trolling."
In that case my response is: you're well entitled to your opinion. You have yet to experience the workforce side of healthcare and the issues nurses have to go through because of politics. You are currently going through the Canadian healthcare system, so I cannot speak for them given I am from USA. When you do graduate, pass your licensure exam, and your stance in healthcare is still the same; I will whole hardly respect your beliefs. I would hope one day we can have a professional debate when that time comes.
Thank you for the kind response!
Maybe as I go through nursing, some of my views will change! I'm open. If they don't, I'm sure my experience will help yield a good discussion. :)
(Bolding mine) I'm not sure how you see that as any different than how it works in Canada, basically 36 million people have gotten together and decided to pool their funds, there aren't people who have never paid into the system in one way or another who are utilizing the system (except for babies and children).
Well, the issue is that there are some who desire to opt out of paying, because they have the ability to pay for themselves. People are now forced (through taxation) into the system otherwise it couldn't sustain itself. So 35 million people are telling 1 million other people they can't opt out. (hyperbole, I don't know the stats exactly)
Ahhh yes, that classic judgmental trait that makes a great nurse. My God, if these are the assumptions you make about a complete stranger on the internet, I'd hate to be one of your patients. lol
I'm simply going to say here, you don't really know me.
Your post says a lot about you. Either you are lacking the wholistic humanity required of a nurse or you are just trying to stir the pot. I am taking you at your word and assuming you are not just trying to stir the pot. I am simply pointing out that you haven't been successful at applying Libertarian prinicples to your own life. Why have you been living below the poverty line most of your life? That demonstrates a clear inability to be successful in a capitalist economy. Your unabashed consumption of social benefits brands you a hypocrite. Personally, I find the Libertarian belief system to be incompatible with the deep caring and altruism required of nurses. Also, I don't think you'd cut it in the USA as our social benefits are paltry compared to Canada. Anyway, there's no guarantee the US would even take you.
Your post says a lot about you. Either you are lacking the wholistic humanity required of a nurse or you are just trying to stir the pot. I am taking you at your word and assuming you are not just trying to stir the pot. I am simply pointing out that you haven't been successful at applying Libertarian prinicples to your own life. Why have you been living below the poverty line most of your life? That demonstrates a clear inability to be successful in a capitalist economy. Your unabashed consumption of social benefits brands you a hypocrite. Personally, I find the Libertarian belief system to be incompatible with the deep caring and altruism required of nurses. Also, I don't think you'd cut it in the USA as our social benefits are paltry compared to Canada. Anyway, there's no guarantee the US would even take you.
Unfortunately I don't know if you know what libertarianism is, you're presupposing it means everyone values money.... rather, you're simply free to value whatever you desire. I choose to work in a lot of non-profits when I was younger. Didn't ever really make much working in a youth drop in for 5 years.
Like I said, the intolerance on this forum is nuts... I'm really happy to not be one of your patients, or many of the other nurses that are on this forum. That's actually scary.
Go read what you wrote... and / or go read what others have wrote... I don't think it's too hard to ask people to stick to the argument, and not my character. Maybe that wasn't taught in nursing school?
shibaowner, MSN, RN, NP
3 Articles; 583 Posts
What is quite interesting is that the OP admits he has lived "well below the poverty line" for most of his life. Why? That's pretty sad. It's also the sign of a failed Libertarian. I mean, if he was a successful Libertarian, he'd be rolling in dough! I'm a social liberal and starting at the age of 20, financially self-sufficient and making excellent money w/o a college degree. By 23 years old, I was making the equivalent of $60,000 today and put myself through college. By age 33, I was making the equivalent of $130,000 today, and my income only went up from there. (My previous career was in business). He is a hypocrite and a failure by his own standards. Happy to be on the dole, but railing against other poor people. Please, please, do not come to the USA!