Health care administration - non nurses

[nutella, MSN, RN]

I am somewhat puzzled by the idea of people studying to become healthcare administrators with NO experience in the health care field whatsoever. Some have the goal of becoming a "clinical administrator" - how can you become a "clinical" admin if you are not a clinical person???

Currently I am sharing a graduate studies class with students who are mostly not nurses. It appears to me that they have the idea that their previous knowledge from education, science or such is enough to become an administrator in a hospital, clinic or other facility. If this is the new trend - it scares me!

I once worked as a clinical manager under a facility administrator who had NO healthcare or clinical experience. Her focus was clearly "numbers", no social skills, and no idea about the area she was supposed to manage. It was a bad experience all around. I left shortly after she started.

I understand that we need people in healthcare who are administrators but most successful admins in facilities and hospitals or clinics are nurses.

Perhaps I am looking at it the wrong way?

[Penelope_Pitstop, BSN, RN]

I'm with ya.

A university near me offers a dual MSN/MBA and I understand THAT premise.

[nutella, MSN, RN]

I'm with ya.

A university near me offers a dual MSN/MBA and I understand THAT premise.

Yes - that combination makes at least sense.

Or a MSN with management focus.

I still wonder why people think they qualify to work as a clinical administrator if they are not clinical ...

[technofreak]

I work at a very prestigious hospital. This hospital regularly hires MHA/MBA graduates as clinical managers and directors with no clinical experience whatsoever (unless you count the administration fellowship/residency our hospital sponsors). The reason I was given by an executive was that nurses who move up the corporate ladder have too much loyalty to the clinical staff and that causes "issues" in meetings. The person would not go into detail.

[KatieMI, BSN, MSN, RN]

Any healthcare facility is a business, whether we like it or not. Just like a supermarket, a gas station, a restaurant. They all have the same baseline rules of management. So, ABOVE the certain level, administration is kind of the same in any industry. The entry-level job may still be required, but if the person will be primarily responsible for legal aspects of business, he needs a lawyer experience much more than, say, bedside nursing.

The problems come if:

1) the position is indeed not above that certain level. I can imagine how someone with education/administrative background can direct educational programs for staff development, but seeing just such person with her new MSN/Nursing ed degree "teaching" 90+ year old demented old lady how to control her blood pressure is totally ridiculous.

2) if the person somehow got that entry-level experience, usually of the lowest steps of the ladder, and because of this got the God's complex, IV and terminal degree. That sort of person who was working as "food ambassador" at nights 30+ years ago before going into college, law school and so forth, now he's back as His High Majesty CEO whose only one responce is "don't gimme that crap, been' there, done that, all that nurses do is sitting at station and making gossip and doin' stuff with docs while I was spending hours of my young life doing their job!"

[nutella, MSN, RN]

I work at a very prestigious hospital. This hospital regularly hires MHA/MBA graduates as clinical managers and directors with no clinical experience whatsoever (unless you count the administration fellowship/residency our hospital sponsors). The reason I was given by an executive was that nurses who move up the corporate ladder have too much loyalty to the clinical staff and that causes "issues" in meetings. The person would not go into detail.

I can see MBA etc in higher up positions where the focus is on money.

Or in combination with a clinical manager who is a nurse.

[nutella, MSN, RN]

Any healthcare facility is a business, whether we like it or not. Just like a supermarket, a gas station, a restaurant. They all have the same baseline rules of management. So, ABOVE the certain level, administration is kind of the same in any industry. The entry-level job may still be required, but if the person will be primarily responsible for legal aspects of business, he needs a lawyer experience much more than, say, bedside nursing.

The problems come if:

1) the position is indeed not above that certain level. I can imagine how someone with education/administrative background can direct educational programs for staff development, but seeing just such person with her new MSN/Nursing ed degree "teaching" 90+ year old demented old lady how to control her blood pressure is totally ridiculous.

2) if the person somehow got that entry-level experience, usually of the lowest steps of the ladder, and because of this got the God's complex, IV and terminal degree. That sort of person who was working as "food ambassador" at nights 30+ years ago before going into college, law school and so forth, now he's back as His High Majesty CEO whose only one responce is "don't gimme that crap, been' there, done that, all that nurses do is sitting at station and making gossip and doin' stuff with docs while I was spending hours of my young life doing their job!"

Number 2 is what I find concerning.

I need to say that in a lot of nursing facilities for example, the DON is also the admin and at the same time supervises the LPN for example. Because they supervise clinical personnel they have to be a RN. Granted that those are often BSN and not necessarily MSN.

Yes - it is a business. And I left management because I could not agree on the staffing that the company thought as "ok". It was literally all about the money, just not my thing.

[Stratiotes]

From what I've experienced, even those who have worked as nurses seem to lose touch once they get into admin. I'm not sure it really makes a difference.

[elkpark]

The reason I was given by an executive was that nurses who move up the corporate ladder have too much loyalty to the clinical staff and that causes "issues" in meetings. The person would not go into detail.

S/he means that the nurses would be too reluctant and hesitant to throw the staff nurses under the bus, unlike the rest of the executives ...

[RiskManager]

I am not sure where the OP has experience, but I have worked for a number of large to very large hospitals and integrated healthcare systems, both at the facility and corporate level. In that setting, I do not see very many nurses without additional business training as administrators outside of the nursing or some clinical support service lines. I rarely see a nurse as the CEO, CFO, CRO, head of HR or other general or business-focused administrative functions. Most of the people who fill those roles have management degrees such as a MBA or MHA. I have seen several hospitals in which the CEO has a MD, either by itself or in conjunction with a MBA or MHA. LTC is a service line where I see more nurses as administrators, at least at the local facility level; not necessarily at the corporate headquarters level.

[nutella, MSN, RN]

I am not sure where the OP has experience, but I have worked for a number of large to very large hospitals and integrated healthcare systems, both at the facility and corporate level. In that setting, I do not see very many nurses without additional business training as administrators outside of the nursing or some clinical support service lines. I rarely see a nurse as the CEO, CFO, CRO, head of HR or other general or business-focused administrative functions. Most of the people who fill those roles have management degrees such as a MBA or MHA. I have seen several hospitals in which the CEO has a MD, either by itself or in conjunction with a MBA or MHA. LTC is a service line where I see more nurses as administrators, at least at the local facility level; not necessarily at the corporate headquarters level.

I believe that additional training in management and administration is essential for nurses who wish to work in administration /higher leadership. Large healthcare systems seems to employ nurse managers as unit managers for floors to provide the clinical leadership component but usually require a graduate degree in Nursing or healthcare administration. Of course when it comes to the director level specific knowledge is needed that focuses on financing and managing itself. There is nothing wrong with it and a lot right as nurse managers are usually directing the clinical care.

When you look outside of the hospitals, leadership can vary.

From my current course in graduate studies I have learned that everybody else in this course is studying to become a healthcare administrator with the goal of running facilities like nursing homes or in insurances. One person put out that she does not like to take care of patients but would like to run a facility - granted she did a CNA course....

That is scary.

[sadbuthappy]

I'm sorry but I don't think it necessary that they need to have clinical experience. No offense but this seems just like more lobbying about how nurses are needed at every position. Nurses can make great administrators but non nurses can too